>>> NOW $100 MILLION.

THAT'S THE REPORTED SUM AI FIRMS ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI HAVE POURED INTO THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS.

AT THE SAME TIME ANTHROPIC IS SCRUTINY OVER REPORTS THAT'S CLAUDE MODEL PAY WALLED GEORGIA VOTING DATA, THE LATEST IN A STRING OF CONTROVERSIES OVER ACTIVITY.

NOW "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR" AARON GLANTZ AND SOPHIE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING WHERE THESE COMPANIES' POLITICAL ARE ACTUALLY GOING AND WHAT THEY HOPE TO ACHIEVE.

THEY JOIN SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE UNEXPECTED PATTERNS THEY AND WHAT AI'S GROWING POLITICAL INFLUENCE MEAN FOR DEMOCRACIES.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

AARON GLANTZ AND HILLS THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

SOPHIE, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WE'RE WEEKS AWAY FROM THE OBVIOUSLY IN EVERY POLITICAL CYCLE, THERE IS ALWAYS LOT OF MONEY INVOLVED.

YOU TO TAKE A LOOK CLOSER AT THE AI SPECIFICALLY AND HOW MUCH THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING.

HOW MUCH MONEY WE TALKING ABOUT THAT'S COMING INTO THIS ELECTION AND WHERE IS IT GOING?

>> THANKS, HARI.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

GRAND TOTAL IS PRETTY LARGE.

SO ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI HAVE ABOUT $100 MILLION INTO A WEB OF SUPER PACS, AND THOSE SUPER PACS HAD SO FAR NEARLY $60 MILLION IN SUPPORT OF OR IN OPPOSITION TO 65 CANDIDATES AND COUNTING AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING IS THESE CANDIDATES ARE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THEY'RE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

WHERE COMPANIES ARE CHOOSING TO PUT THE MONEY REALLY DOESN'T MAP EVENLY AND NEATLY ON TO AN DIVIDE.

>> SO AARON, YOU'RE THE AI BUREAU CHIEF AT "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE " WHAT SOPHIE IS DESCRIBING, IS ABNORMAL FOR POLITICS?

HAVEN'T WE ALWAYS HAD BIG PHARMA AND SPECIAL INTERESTS LOBBYING BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'VE SEEN WIT DRUG COMPANIES AND COMPANIES AND OTHER LARGE INTERESTS.

I THINK WE THOUGHT IT IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF THIS YEAR'S ELECTION HAS BEEN WHO IS GOING TO CONTROL THE AND WHO IS GOING TO CONTROL THE BUT WHEN YOU LOOK, AS SOPHIE SAID, ABOUT WHERE THESE ARE INVESTING THEIR MONEY, THEY ARE INVESTING ON BOTH SIDES.

AND ANTHROPIC WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHOEVER THEY ARE IN THE ROOM.

AND SO THERE ARE RACES THAT THEY'RE INVESTING IN, SUCH AS SOUTH CAROLINA SENATE RACE WHERE PACs AFFILIATED WITH OPENAI HAVE MORE THAN TWO MILLION INTO THE CAMPAIGN OF REPUBLICAN DARLENE GRAHAM WHO IS FACING A VERY SPIRITED CHALLENGE DEMOCRAT ANNIE ANDREWS.

ANNIE ANDREWS HAS A POSITION AGAINST DATA AND DARLENE GRAHAM IS GETTING ALL THIS MONEY FROM SO THAT'S A VERY CLEAR CASE OF THE COMPANIES LAYING IT THE RIGHT.

BUT THERE ARE OTHER SITUATIONS THEY'RE GIVING HEAVILY TO THE AND SOME OF THESE CANDIDATES ARE NOT IN RACES.

RECENTLY THERE WAS ANOTHER ABOUT A RECENT RACE IN UPSTATE NEW WHERE THE DEMOCRAT HAS A VERY SAFE PATH TO REELECTION.

SO THEY JUST WANT TO BE IN THE THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE EAR OF PEOPLE ON LEFT AND PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT.

>> SO SOPHIE, HOW DO WE KNOW THIS MONEY IS COMING FROM?

BECAUSE THE STRUCTURE OF SUPER PACS MAKES IT DIFFICULT.

OPENAI SAYS THE ITSELF HASN'T DONATED TO ANY OF THESE GROUPS.

BUT WHERE IS >> IT IS A BIT CONFUSING TO TRACE.

SO THESE COMPANIES HAVE FUNDED SUPER PACS THAT SPANS ON REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND CANDIDATES.

AND THE NAMES ARE SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S KIND OF BUT OPENAI'S SUPER PAC THAT SPENDS ON REPUBLICAN IS CALLED AMERICAN MISSION, WHEREAS THEIR SUPER PAC SPENDS ON DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES IS CALLED BIG.

SO IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO US TO SORT OF BACK TO THE SOURCE, LOOK AT THE FILINGS FROM THE FEC AND SEE THE RACES WHERE COMPANIES ARE DIRECTING MONEY, STARTING IN THE PRIMARIES.

AND THEY WADE IN PRETTY HEAVILY ON SEVERAL IN ATTEMPTS TO PICK THE WINNERS.

EXAMPLE WAS WHEN DEMOCRATIC NADLER, WHO IS ONE OF THE MOST MEMBERS OF THE NEW YORK DELEGATION, WHEN OPTED TO RETIRE, THERE WAS A HEATED PRIMARY, AND AND OPENAI ACTUALLY SPENT A TOTAL OF $27 MILLION AGAINST EACH OTHER IN SUPPORT OF AN AND OPPOSITION TO DEMOCRATIC STATE LEGISLATOR BORIS WHO ENDED UP LOSING HIS PRIMARY.

>> SO ALEX HAD STAKED OUT A SPECIFIC POSITION AI, RIGHT?

AND I'M WONDERING, IS THERE ANY FOR WHY OPENAI WOULD BE ON ONE SIDE OF THE DONATION VERSUS ANTHROPIC ON THE OTHER SIDE?

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING, ANTHROPIC IS MORE PRO INFLUENCING HOW THE REGULATIONS TAKE SHAPE WHEREAS OPENAI IS NOMINALLY REGULATION.

AND BORIS HAD WORKED ON SAFETY AS A STATE LEGISLATOR.

HE IS ALSO A FORMER PALANTIR EXECUTIVE.

SO HE HAS FAMILIARITY THAN A LOT OF >> THERE IS A RACE LIKE THAT WHERE THERE IS A CLEAR ON AI AND A CANDIDATE IS TAKING.

YOU ALSO OUT IN YOUR REPORTING, LET'S SAY WE GO OHIO, AND YOU'VE GOT DEMOCRAT BRIAN THERE.

AND HE TOLD YOU HE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT AI OR DATA CENTERS, WHICH IS A TOPIC.

SO WHY ARE THE AI COMPANIES IN THAT RACE?

>> BRIAN POINDEXTER DID TELL REPORTERS THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW WHY --WHY TECH COMPANIES HAVE PUT MONEY HIS CANDIDACY.

IT'S INTERESTING.

A LOT OF THE SCHOLARS I TALKED TO THE MOTIVATION FOR THESE IS ONE OF TWO THINGS.

TYPICALLY EITHER TO WEIGH IN ON A RACE WHERE THE HAS A STATED POSITION ON REGULATIONS AS WITH ALEX BORIS, OR IT MIGHT JUST BE TO A RELATIONSHIP SO THAT WHEN THESE OFFICIALS, ONCE THEY'RE IN THE ABOUT POINT, THEY'LL KIND OF LEND AN TO THESE COMPANIES.

>> AARON, THAT JIVES WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

AND I WONDER, THIS IS ALSO AT A TIME WHEN AMERICANS HAVE A LOT OPINIONS ABOUT AI, ABOUT DATA CENTERS.

AND I HOW DOES THIS SQUARE WITH THE POLITICAL THAT THESE COMPANIES MIGHT BE BECAUSE IN SOME SENSES, THEIR INVOLVEMENT MIGHT LIKE SOME OF THE CANDIDATES DON'T WANT TO BE TELLING THEIR THAT THEY'RE TAKING MONEY FROM AI >> WELL, ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS FOUND IN HER REPORTING IS ALL THIS MONEY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A SUPER PAC, THEY CAN'T COORDINATE WITH THE >> RIGHT.

>> SO THEY'RE PUTTING THEIR OWN ADS IN SUPPORT OR OPPOSITION A PARTICULAR CANDIDATE.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THEIR ADS IS THEY DON'T MENTION AI AT ALL.

SO ARE ADS THAT ARE BEING PAID FOR BY SUPER PACS, BEING PAID FOR BY OR ANTHROPIC.

THESE COMPANIES HAVE GREAT DEAL OF BUSINESS BEFORE NOT ONLY ABOUT DATA CENTERS, BUT WANT APPROVAL FROM THE FEC -- SEC RATHER TO PUT DATA CENTERS SPACE.

THEY WANT ALL KINDS OF REGULATIONS OR NOT HOW FAST THEY CAN GROW AND OR NOT THERE WILL BE ANY KIND OF KILL SWITCH.

WHETHER THERE WILL BE PREEMPTION LOCAL AND STATE LAWS WHICH ARE WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO BE HELD OR NOT FOR THE IMPACTS ON THEIR PRODUCTS.

THESE ARE GOING TO BE BEFORE CONGRESS.

WHEN THEY HAVE AN ADD, THEY USUALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT OF THIS.

>> SOPHIE, IN THE DIFFERENT ADS YOU'VE SEEN AND THE DIFFERENT CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU'VE WATCHING, YOU POINT OUT THAT IT DOESN'T SAY AT THE OF THE AD THIS WAS BROUGHT TO YOU OPENAI OR ANTHROPIC.

AND I WONDER, GIVEN WHAT PEOPLE ABOUT THESE COMPANIES RIGHT NOW, WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE HOW THEY VOTED IF THAT WAS BUYING THIS AD?

>> IN SOME STATES IT CERTAINLY WOULD.

YOU KNOW, BEEN COVERING CAMPAIGNS AROUND THE COUNTRY FOR CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR" THIS CYCLE, AND PARTICULARLY IN STATES LIKE OHIO, IOWA, KENTUCKY, I'M HEARING OVER AND FROM VOTERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE THAT THEY ARE -- THEY DON'T WANT DATA CENTERS IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

THEY'RE ABOUT THE RAPID DEVELOPMENT OF AI.

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IN GENERAL.

FLOCK CAMERAS HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH COVERAGE.

AND VOTERS HAVE EXPRESSED THIS FEELING THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE SO BIG, THEY'RE SO BIG AND THEY HAVE SO MUCH MONEY, THEY'RE DEVELOPING THIS TECH FEELS SORT OF BEYOND THE AVERAGE IN HER BUSINESS LIVES TO REALLY DIG AND UNDERSTAND IN A DEEP WAY.

AND THESE VOTERS WANT TO KNOW THAT THEIR ELECTED ARE PROTECTING THE VOTERS' BEHALF OF THESE COMPANIES.

I THAT IT REALLY WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF A VOTER WERE TO AN AD THAT SAID "PAID FOR BY OPENAI," THEY WOULD I JUST WENT TO A CITY COUNCIL WHERE I SAID I DIDN'T WANT A DATA CENTER IN MY -- COMMUNITY TO HELP HELP FUEL AI.

AND ONE EXAMINE OF ADS IS A TEXAS RACE.

REPUBLICAN CARLOS LA CRUZ, WHO IS RUNNING AGAINST JOHNNY GARCIA IN A DISTRICT BY TEXAS REPUBLICANS.

ANTHROPIC SPENT MORE THAN $1.

5 MILLION IN SUPPORT OF AND THAT INCLUDES SPENDING ON SOME ADS THEY'VE RUN.

AND IN ONE AD, IT DESCRIBES DE LA CRUZ SIMPLY AS ENDORSED AND STRONG ON THE BORDER.

THERE IS NO OF AI OR TECH.

>> AND AARON, THIS ISN'T JUST THESE TWO COMPANIES.

I MEAN, IS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE SHAPES THEIR FUTURE.

WE'RE TALKING GOOGLE, META, ELON MUSK.

THEY'RE ALL SPENDING IN MONEY POLITICS.

>> YES.

ELON MUSK HAS BEEN THE GIVER BY FAR IN THIS ELECTION.

HE'S ALSO RUNNING ADS THAT DON'T HIS COMPANIES AND HIS INTERESTS.

YOU KNOW, A OF HIS ADS HAVE TO DO WITH TRANS KIDS IN SPORTS, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BUSINESS INTERESTS.

CLEARLY THINKS THAT IS THE BEST WINNING STRATEGY TO TALK ABOUT TESLA OR SPACEX OR ANY OF OR THE MASS OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS THAT HE WE WERE SURPRISED THAT THERE HAD BEEN LESS ATTENTION ON OPENAI AND WHICH ARE THE TWO FASTEST GROWING COMPANIES.

BOTH LIKELY TO IPO, AND THEY'RE SEEK TRILLION VALUATIONS.

AND SO IN THIS RACE, WHEN SOMEBODY LIKE IS VERY HEAVILY BACKING THE IT'S IMPORTANT HAVE A DIFFERENT STRATEGY, WHICH IS THEY JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT WHETHER THE REPUBLICANS WIN OR THE DEMOCRATS THAT THEY WIN.

>> SO SOPHIE, WHAT HAPPENS TO MONEY THAT GOES UNSPENT?

CAN IT BE AFTER THE ELECTION TOO?

>> IT CAN.

AND THESE SUPER PACS ARE SITTING ON ABOUT $40 MILLION OF FUNDS RIGHT NOW.

CAN SPEND THEM BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION.

COULD JUST GO ON A TOTAL SPENDING BLITZ.

BUT LAWS GOVERNING SUPER PACS ARE BROAD.

SO THESE GROUPS COULD ALSO SPEND THIS MONEY THE ELECTION, YOU KNOW, IN SUPPORT OF WINNERS TO SORT OF CONTINUE THIS ATTEMPT TO MAKE INROADS WITH OFFICIALS.

>> MANY OF THESE CANDIDATES MAY UP IN DEBT AT THE END OF THEIR CAMPAIGN.

AND SO THESE COMPANIES OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC, PAY OFF THE DEBTS THE WINNING CANDIDATES.

AND IF YOU JUST IMAGINE HOW HAPPY WOULD BE IF A COMPANY OR SUPER PAC PAID OFF CAMPAIGN DEBT, THAT WOULD BE A WAY TO BUILD THAT RELATIONSHIP.

>> YEAH YOU MIGHT GET YOUR PHONE ANSWERED A LITTLE FASTER.

I WONDER, AARON, IF THERE IS ALSO CONVERSATION IN THIS COUNTRY ESPECIALLY AROUND THE AI THAT WE ARE IN THIS TECHNOLOGICAL WITH CHINA, AND THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

HOW SHOULD LAWMAKERS WEIGH THESE AGAINST THIS BASIC NEED THAT WE HAVE FOR >> THESE COMPANIES AND THE PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, ARE POSITIONING THE U. S. IN A RACE WITH CHINA, RIGHT.

AND ARE SAYING THAT IF WE DON'T WIN THIS RACE, COULD BE DAMAGING TO AMERICA.

IN OUR AT THE MONITOR, WE'VE BEEN FOCUSED LOT MORE ON WHAT THESE TOOLS ACTUALLY DO, THE PROS AND CONS ACTUALLY ARE, AND IT LOOKS LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE DID A STORY ABOUT A RUSH THAT'S HAPPENING IN K-12 WHERE CHATBOTS THAT ARE UNPROVEN BEING ROLLED OUT IN SCHOOLS.

WE DID A STORY ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY'S DEVELOPMENT OF AI TOOL VET WHETHER OR NOT PESTICIDES ARE TOXIC.

SO AI BE REVIEWING ALL THIS SCIENTIFIC RATHER THAN HUMANS BEFORE A POTENTIALLY PESTICIDE WERE APPROVED.

WE'RE LOOKING INTO SURVEILLANCE BY THE OF HOMELAND SECURITY USING AI.

WHAT MY HOPE WOULD BE IS WE AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHEN WE THIS TECHNOLOGY, WE BEGIN TO FOCUS MORE ON WHAT IT HOW WE FEEL ABOUT THAT, WHAT KIND OF WE WANT TO MAKE.

AND A LITTLE BIT LESS ON THIS RACE.

THE UNITED NATIONS PUT OUT REPORT THIS SUMMER THAT SHOWED THAT THE UNITED HAS 75% OF THE AI COMPUTING POWER.

CHINA HAS 15%.

THE REST OF THE HAS THE BALANCE, ABOUT 10%.

SO WHAT I'VE LEARNED IN SOME OF MY REPORTING ON THE REST OF THE IS THEY'RE NOT SO CONCERNED WINNING AND COMING IN FIRST.

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TECHNOLOGY WORKS FOR THEM.

>> SOPHIE, AS YOUR REPORTINGS COME OUT OF OR ANTHROPIC RESPONDED?

>> NO.

AND WE DIDN'T GET RESPONSE TO SOME I SENT IN SOME WEEKS AGO EITHER.

>> AARON, LET'S LOOK AHEAD TO THIS CONGRESS.

REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DECISIONS ABOUT AI THAT IS GOING TO BE IN OF CONGRESS THAT PERHAPS OPENAI ANTHROPIC ARE INTERESTED IN AND THAT'S WHY THIS POLITICAL CYCLE.

>> THESE COMPANIES ARE LOOKING AT POTENTIAL REGULATION.

THEY'RE AT WANTING TO BE HELD HARMLESS ON THERE IS A LAWSUIT FILED BY EIGHT STATES OVER --AGAINST OPENAI OVER HARM BEING DONE BY PRODUCTS TO CHILDREN.

SO THEY LIKE TO LIMIT THEIR IN THE WAY THAT HAS OCCURRED FOR SOCIAL COMPANIES.

THEY WANT PERHAPS ON DATA CENTERS AND PERMITTING TO CONTINUE AS OCCURRED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HAVE A LONG LIST OF SPECIAL INTERESTS BEFORE THE AND THEY HAVE MAJOR FEDERAL THAT THEY'RE GETTING, JUST LIKE ELON SO THEY HAVE A LOT OF BUSINESS, LOT OF BUSINESS AND A LOT MORE WAYS PEOPLE MIGHT EVEN REALIZE JUST LOOKING THE DATA CENTER FLASH POINT.

>> RIGHT NOW, AARON, IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS AN INEVITABLE FUTURE.

AND I WONDER WHERE OUR VOTERS OF FIT INTO THIS GIVEN THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SO THAT PEOPLE THAT DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE THEIR DISCUSSION.

>> THROUGH OUR REPORTING, WE CAN SHOW ALL THE CHOICES THE ARE MAKING.

SO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE DECISIONS.

PEOPLE ARE MAKING DECISIONS AT THE LOCAL DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT GLOBAL BODIES AND COMPANIES.

AND SO WE CAN WEIGH IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT WAYS.

SO PEOPLE MAY FEEL, FOR THERE IS TOO MUCH AI, TOO FAST IN THEIR SCHOOLS.

AND WE SAW IN NEW YORK AND L. A. A PUT ON THE ROLL-OUT OF AI IN K-12 EDUCATION.

PEOPLE MAY FEEL LIKE THEIR CHATBOTS ARE THEIR CHILDREN.

AND WE'VE SEEN LAWSUITS FILED.

IS A LOT OF WAYS IN WHICH THIS IS PLAYING AND I THINK IF WE FOCUS ON THOSE WHO'S MAKING THEM, AND WHO'S IN ROOM, WE CAN BEGIN TO GET SOME AGENCY AND POWER AND TO DECIDE HOW WE WANT TO SHAPE OUR OWN REGARDING THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

>> AARON GLANTZ AND SOPHIE HILLS FROM "THE CHRISTIAN MONITOR," THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, MEXICO'S DAY OF THE DEAD CELEBRATIONS ARE BUT GHOSTLY.

DRUMMERS, DANCERS, AND DECORATED VEHICLES BROUGHT CITY STREETS TO LIFE, AS YOU CAN SEE THERE, AS THOUSANDS OUT TO THE ANNUAL PARADE.

THE FESTIVITIES MARK THE RUN-UP ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST IMPORTANT A TIME TO HONOR THE DEAD AND CELEBRATE THE BONDS THAT OUTLIVE THEM.

INDIGENOUS AND CATHOLIC DAY OF THE DEAD IS MARKED WITH COLORFUL ALTARS, MARIGOLDS AND SUGAR WITH FIGURES THAT UNITE THE AND THOSE THAT HAVE PASSED.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND FROM NEW YORK.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND KOO AND YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL IN OUR COMMUNITIES bARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WATCHING PBS.