>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", AS THE U.S.

FULLY RECOVERS FROM THE PANDEMIC, WOMEN ARE HIT HARDER WITH ECONOMIC AND MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES; THEN, IS IT WISE FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO DENY COMMUNION TO A PRO-CHOICE YOU AS PRESIDENT?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", THE DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WOMEN, THE PANDEMIC AND THE ECONOMY: BUSINESSES CONTINUE TO REOPEN WITH MOST AMERICANS HAVING HAD AT LEAST ONE DOSE OF THE COVID VACCINE, BUT ECONOMIC AND MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES PROCESSED AND THEY ARE TOUGHER ON WOMEN.

WOMEN LOST MORE JOBS THAN MEN DURING THE PANDEMIC.

AND AS JOBS COME BACK, WOMEN LAG BEHIND MEN GOING BACK TO WORK.

MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES HAVE IMPACTED ALL TYPES OF AMERICANS, BUT WOMEN MORE SO.

A NEW HARVARD POLE OF YOUNG ADULTS SHOWS THE MAJORITY OF YOUNG WOMEN FEEL DOWN, DEPRESSED OR HOPELESS.

AND ALMOST 3/4 OF YOUNG WOMEN REPORT FEELING TIRED OR LACKING ENERGY.

WITH US TODAY ARE THE CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY'S CHAIR LINDA CHAVEZ; FORMER MARYLAND U.S. REPRESENTATIVE DONNA EDWARDS; INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM, PRESIDENT CARRIE LUKAS; AND DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND CULTURAL ADVOCATE, MEGAN BEYER.

SO, DONNA EDWARDS, WITH YOUNG PEOPLE DEPRESSED AND WOMEN DEPRESSED, HOW DO WE EXPECT AN ECONOMIC RECOVERY TO HAPPEN?

>> Donna: THAT IS WHY AN ECONOMIC RECOVERY REALLY HAS TO FIT FOCUS ON -- FOR WHOM THE ECONOMY IS RECOVERING.

AND BY THAT I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WHAT KINDS OF JOBS ARE BEING CREATED, HE'S BEING RECRUITED FOR THOSE JOBS.

THEN OF COURSE DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE ABORT LACK OF HEALTH SERVICES TO SO MANY COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE A STRONG ECONOMIC RECOVERY IF WE DO NOT FOCUS THAT RECOVERY ON WOMEN.

>> Linda: IN ORDER TO HAVE A VERY HEALTHY ECONOMY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXPANDING LABOR FORCE, AND WE ARE RUNNING NOW INTO LABOR SHORTAGES.

AND WOMEN ARE PART OF THAT STORY.

WOMEN ARE FINDING THAT IF THEY DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE CHILDCARE, IF THEIR KIDS ARE NOT BACK IN SCHOOL, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT ABOUT THE BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE, AND IT IS PARTICULARLY SO FOR WOMEN WHO ARE AT THE LOWER END OF THE ECONOMIC SCALE.

I MEAN, IF YOU ARE WEALTHY ENOUGH AND CAN AFFORD TO HIRE SOMEBODY TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR KIDS, THAT'S ONE THING, BUT IF YOU HAVE TO RELY ON DAYCARE FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO BE YOUR CHILD CARE SYSTEM, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie: WELL, BUT LET ME POINT OUT AN OXYMORON, BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID THAT LOW INCOME WOMEN, THEY DON'T HAVE -- WELL, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE CARE FOR THEIR CHILDREN, BUT THEY ALSO AREN'T -- THEY AREN'T GOING BACK TO WORK.

WELL, THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO GET ANYTHING FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR CHILDREN IF THEY DON'T FIND A WAY TO GET BACK TO WORK.

>> Linda: I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, I AM A CONSERVATIVE AND NOT ONLY TONS AND TONS OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS FUNDED BY THE TAXPAYERS.UT I THINK WE DO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE SCHOOLS, NUMBER ONE.

THIS WEEK, THE HEAD OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS ANNOUNCED THAT SCHOOLS MUST REOPEN IN THE FALL, AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

THAT IS, YOU KNOW, LIKE IT OR NOT, IS NOT JUST EDUCATING KIDS AT THAT SCHOOLS DO, IT TAKES CARE OF THEM WHILE THEIR PARENTS WORK.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, WE DO HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO HELP PARENTS BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS.

I WOULD RATHER HAVE DIRECT PAYMENTS TO PARENTS INCLUDING SINGLE MOTHERS, RATHER THAN JUST POURING MORE MONEY INTO DAYCARE, BECAUSE I THINK THAT GIVES PEOPLE MORE OPTIONS AND THEY CAN JUST FAMILY MEMBERS, OR THEY CAN PERHAPS END UP FINDING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO STAY HOME MORE HOURS THAN THEY OTHERWISE WOULD.

>> Bonnie: MAKE IN, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Megan: LINDA, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.

YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN HEARING A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT TALKING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING CHECKS, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE NOT GOING BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE.AND THEY REALLY DON'T THINK THAT'S IT AT ALL.

I THINK THAT THE LACK OF SCAFFOLDING, AND I MIGHT EVEN USE THE WORD INFRASTRUCTURE, FOR THE TRANSFER OF WOMEN OUT OF THE HOME INTO THE WORKFORCE BACK TO THE SEVEN '70s JUST NEVER TOOK PLACE.

ALL THOSE THINGS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, LINDA, CHILDCARE, THE REALITY THAT PEOPLE ARE TAKING CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN, IF THEY ARE NOT TAKING CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING.

I LOVE YOUR IDEA OF THE PAYMENT PER CHILD FOR THAT.

AND LUCKILY, IT'S SORT OF LIKE A PERFECT STORM.

YOU HEAR THAT IDEA THAT YOU NEVER WANT TO LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE.

AND IN POLITICS, AND THIS IS THE CRISIS THAT HAS EXPOSED HOW DEPENDENT THIS ECONOMY IS ON WOMEN WORKERS, WHO ARE NOT -- YOU KNOW, IT'S ONLY BEEN BLAMING THE VICTIM, EXPLAINING THE HEROES OF THIS COVID CRISIS WHERE THEY WERE THE FRONT LINE WORKERS, THEY WERE THE ONES GIVING UP THE JOB, GOING HOME, TAKING CARE OF THE PEOPLE WHO NEEDED TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.

WELL, I HOPE THAT AS WE COME OUT OF IT, WE BUILD BACK BETTER, THE JOE BIDEN PLATFORM IS THE PERFECT PLATFORM TO PUT THOSE THINGS THAT LINDA TALKED ABOUT IN PLACE.

>> Carrie: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT A LOT OF THE STORY OF THE PANDEMIC AND WHAT IS HAPPENED TO WOMEN IS THAT WE HAVE HAD THE FAILURE OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND I KNOW HERE IN VIRGINIA, THE PUBLIC -- THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS OPEN STARTING IN SEPTEMBER AND KIDS WERE BACK FULL-TIME.

AND I SAT HERE WITH FIVE PUBLIC SCHOOL KIDS, PROUD PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENT, AND MY KIDS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO BACK UNTIL ABOUT A MONTH AGO.

FOR NOTHING THAT I FIND FUNNY AT THIS POINT IS THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT WITH THE BIG PART OF THE AMERICAN FAMILIES ACT, THE PROPOSAL BY THE PRESIDENT, IS TO DOUBLE DOWN ON THIS K-12 MODEL THAT DID SUCH TERRIBLE DAMAGE TO ESPECIALLY AMERICAN WOMEN AND THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF OPTING OUT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

YOU KNOW, I DO LIKE THE IDEA, I THINK WE CAN TAKE A LOT OF MONEY THAT'S RIGHT NOW BEING SIPHONED THROUGH THE FAILING PUBLIC SCHOOL BUREAUCRACIES, GIVE IT A PARENTS, EMPOWERING PARENTS SO THAT THEY CAN KNOW NEXT TIME IF WE EVER HAVE ANOTHER SCHOOL CLOSURE AND WE KNOW OUR SCHOOLS ARE DESPERATE TO CLOSE AS SOON AS THEY CAN AGAIN, AND THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE.

SCHOOLS ARE STILL BEING DRAGGED FORWARD TO OPEN THEIR DOORS, I DON'T HAVE TO BE BETTING ON THEM AGAIN.

GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK.

GIVE ME SOME CHOICES.

GIVE ME THE SAME CHOICES THAT PEOPLE WHO RIGHT NOW ARE CHOOSING PUBLIC -- PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

GIVE US OPTIONS.

I THINK THAT'S THE KEY AND I THINK WE CAN ALL GET ON BOARD.

PARENTS NEED HELP, BUT LET'S NOT -- LET'S GIVE IT DIRECTLY TO THE PARENTS, NOT HAVE A BIG GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY ACT AS A MIDDLEMAN.

>> Bonnie: MEGHAN, YOU REPORTED THIS, BUT WOULD YOU SAY THAT BIDEN'S $6 TRILLION BUDGET, INCLUDING INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS REDEFINING HUMAN BEINGS AS INFRASTRUCTURE, AS YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW -- >> Megan: THE ECONOMY LOOKS AT HUMAN CAPITAL, ACTUALLY, AS AN IMPORTANT ASSET.

YOU KNOW, ANYTHING THAT POPS UP THE ECONOMY, I WAS A HUMAN CAPITAL IS A BIG PIECE OF THAT.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT HE IS TRYING -- HE IS DOING SOMETHING WILDLY REVOLUTIONARY HERE IN CHANGING THE DEFINITION OF, OF PROGRAMS THAT, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL SERVICE PROGRAMS THAT ARE SO WIDELY DECRIED BY PARTS OF THE VOTING BLOC AND CALLING THEM PART OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> Megan: WELL, I WOULD SAY -- >> Bonnie: BUT WAIT, IS THERE ANY WAY HIS $6 TRILLION PACKAGE IS GOING TO GET THROUGH THE SENATE?

>> Donna: THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT BREAKING IT DOWN.

DONNA WOULD PROBABLY KNOW BETTER AT THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS, BUT, YOU KNOW, LET'S GET A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE ON THIS.

WE ARE THE ONLY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION IN THE WORLD THAT DOES NOT HAVE PAID PATERNITY LEAVE, THAT DOES NOT HAVE PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

THESE ARE THE THINGS JOE BIDEN IS TALKING ABOUT.

AND THEN BY BRINGING THE AGE OF PUBLIC SCHOOL DOWN TO 30, THAT HELPS THE PROBLEM OF THE CHILDCARE ISSUE.

AND THEN SOME SUPPORT PROVIDING CHILDCARE.

HE SIMPLY DOING THINGS I THINK RETROACTIVELY.

THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN DONE WHEN WE ALL SO EARNESTLY JOINED THE WORKFORCE AND BELIEVED THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE A WHOLE SOMETHING FOR OUR FAMILIES, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD.

AND IT'S NOT -- I'LL DO BOTH SIDES ON YOU: IT WAS NOT JUST THE REPUBLICANS, IT WAS -- REMEMBER WHEN CLINTON DID, YOU KNOW, WELFARE REFORM?

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE TRANSPORTATION, JOB TRAINING, AND CHILDCARE.ND WE NEVER FULFILLED THOSE PARTS OF IT.

HE DICKERED THAT AWAY AND THE SAUSAGE MAKING, AND WE ALWAYS THOUGHT WE WOULD COME BACK TO IT.

WELL, WE NEVER DID.

TO ME, THOSE THINGS ARE NOT THESE EXTRAS.

AND WE ALL REMEMBER TOO WHEN THEY SAY PEOPLE ARE NOT WORKING BECAUSE THEY ARE GETTING THESE CHECKS, THE CHECKS ARE $300 A WEEK.

A LOT OF THOSE JOBS ARE RESTAURANT JOBS AND YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THERE IS A TIP WAGE OF TWO DOLLARS AN HOUR AND THAT BASIC -- >> Bonnie: IN SOME STATES.

>> Megan: SOME STATES.

[CROSS TALK] >> Megan: BUT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THOSE RESTAURANT DROPS DEPEND ON TIPS.

IF YOU NOT PEOPLE, YOU DON'T HAVE TIP!

IF YOU ARE DOING CARRY OUT, YOU DON'T HAVE TIPS.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS AND FACTORS THAT COME WITH, YOU KNOW, A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME PANDEMIC THAT CHARACTERIZED THIS ECONOMIC DOWNTURN.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

AND, LINDA, YOUR THOUGHTS ON DEFINING PEOPLE AS INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> Linda: WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY A CASE TO BE MADE THAT PEOPLE ARE OUR MAIN CAPITAL, THAT HUMAN CAPITAL IS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE AND THEY ARE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO, TO HAVE A THRIVING ECONOMY.

PUMPKIN AND DRAW SOMETHING THAT I'M SURE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE WITH, BONNIE, AND OTHERS MAY NOT AS WELL, AND THAT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME WOMEN MAY DECIDE THAT IT MAKES MORE SENSE FOR THEM TO STAY HOME.

BUT WE ABSOLUTELY NEED TO EXPAND OUR WORKFORCE.

IN THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS BY FIXING IMMIGRATION AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO COME HERE LEGALLY TO WORK.

AND IF WE WERE TO DO THAT, WE COULD EXPAND THE LABOR FORCE, IT WILL NOT SOLVE OUR WOMEN BACK IN THE LABOR FORCE PROBLEM, BUT I THINK WOMEN SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHOICE.

AND EVEN POOR MOTHERS, YES, IT'S GREAT TO HAVE THE ROLE MODEL OF SOMEBODY GOING TO WORK, BUT IN SOME INSTANCES, I THINK WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE TO STAY HOME TO GET SUPPORT, IF THEY WANT TO GO BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE TO BE ABLE TO HIRE FAMILY MEMBERS , COMMUNITY MEMBERS, NOT NECESSARILY GOOD WITH A DAYCARE CENTER THAT'S FEDERALLY FUNDED.

>> Donna: THE REALITY IS THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO EITHER CHOOSE TO GO TO WORK OR WANT TO WORK GET THERE DAYCARE ACTUALLY NOT FROM, FROM FAMILY MEMBERS, THEY DO GET IN A MORE ORGANIZED STRUCTURE.

AND THE FACT IS THAT THE LACK OF DAYCARE WAS A PROBLEM, A BIG PROBLEM PRE-PANDEMIC AND IT IS A BIGGER PROBLEM NOW.

AND, YOU KNOW, DAYCARE COSTS RUN, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IN MANY STATES, LIKE IN MY HOME STATE OF MARYLAND, THE COST, AVERAGE COST OF DAYCARE ACTUALLY IS MORE THAN THE AVERAGE COST OF A PUBLIC EDUCATION IN COLLEGE.

AND SO, FAMILIES ARE REALLY SUFFERING UNDER THAT AND IT MAY BE THE REASON THAT SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO CHOOSE -- WOMEN CHOOSE TO STAY HOME VERSUS GOING OUT INTO THE LABOR FORCE.

AND I DO THINK THAT THE AMERICAN FAMILIES PLAN -- I MEAN, THE PART OF IT I THINK THAT IS REALLY MOST ATTRACTIVE IS THE FACT THAT IT CONNECTS WHAT YOU DESCRIBE, LINDA, THE HUMAN CAPITAL, TO THE HEART AND CAPITAL.

AS A HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE, TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU CAN GET THE ENTIRE PROJECT DONE, AND SO THAT WOMEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO GET TRAINED INTO SOME OF THESE UNCONVENTIONAL JOB OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE GOING TO COME WITH REBUILDING THE NATION'S INFRASTRUCTURE.

YOU CAN'T GET OUT UNLESS WOMEN FEEL COMFORTABLE IN WHERE THEIR CHILD IS GOING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF DURING THE DAY WHILE THEY ARE WORKING OR ON 1/3 SHIFT, WHEN THEY ARE WORKING IN SOME OF THOSE CONSTRUCTION JOBS.

AND WE HAVE TO DO ALL OF THAT, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T LEAVE OUT HALF OF THE -- HALF OF OUR HUMAN CAPITAL IN TERMS OF WOMEN OUTSIDE OF THE -- OUTSIDE OF THE ECONOMY IN A RECOVERING 21ST-CENTURY ECONOMY.

FINALLY, I WOULD SAY, LINDA, YOU ARE SPOT ON; WE CANNOT HAVE THIS CONVERSATION OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF SIGNIFICANT IMMIGRATION REFORM SO THAT WE CAN BEGIN TO EXPAND OUR LABOR FORCE.

>> Bonnie: WELL, I CHALLENGE EITHER ONE OF YOU TO SHOW ME A YEAR SINCE THE 1950'S WHEN THE U.S. POPULATION HAS DROPPED.

>> Linda: WEEK LOW AT THE SLOWEST RATE IN THE CENSUS THAT WE HAVE AT ANY TIME SINCE THE 1930 US.

WE NEED WORKERS AND THE POPULATION IS AGING.

WE NOW HAVE ONLY 3.4 PERSONS IN THE LABOR FORCE TO TAKE CARE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF THE LABOR FORCE.

>> Bonnie: HERE IS ONE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE GOING INTO THE RECOVERY, WHICH IS VAX -- PEOPLE GETTING VACCINATED.

EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE HAD NOT JUST WON, BUT TWO SHOTS AND ARE FULLY VACCINATED AND BEYOND THE TWO WEEK PERIOD THAT YOU HAVE TO WAIT TO BE FULLY INOCULATED, THEY ARE STILL MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO HAVE NOT GOTTEN VACCINATED.

WHAT DO WE DO WITH THOSE PEOPLE?

HOW DO WE GET THEM VACCINATED SHORT OF, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, GIVE THEM, YOU KNOW, A SIX PACK OF BEER -- >> Carrie: WELL, YOU KNOW, IF I CAN -- I DON'T -- I THINK IT'S INSULTING.

ACTUALLY GOT MY SECOND VACCINATION THIS MORNING AND I'M A BIG SUPPORTER IN PEOPLE GETTING VACCINATED.

BUT I THINK IT'S A CHEAP SHOT TO SAY, OH, GIVE THEM A SIX PACK OF BEER.

THERE ARE PEOPLE -- >> Bonnie: THAT IS WHAT SOMEONE STATE DID AND IT WORKED REALLY WELL.

>> Carrie: IT'S FUNNY.

ACRYLIC ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO START DOING IS ABOUT HAVING A RATIONAL CONVERSATION TO SAY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP MASKING WITH YOUR VACCINATED, YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY SIX FEET APART WHEN YOU ARE VACCINATED.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE HAD THIS -- WE NOW HAVE THIS ZERO-TOLERANCE FOR RISK, AND IT'S FUNNY.

I FEEL LIKE I AGAIN WANT TO HARP ON THIS IDEA IF WE WERE HAVING THE CONVERSATION WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING WAS ABOUT GETTING WOMEN BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE, AND I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS OF WHY WOMEN ARE SO DEPRESSED, WHAT A COUNTRY IS SO DEPRESSEDHAT IF IT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE BECOME THIS INCREDIBLY RISK INTOLERANT -- YOU KNOW, IF YOUR GRANDPARENT, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO GO NEAR YOUR CHILD, EVEN IF YOU HAVE BEEN VACCINATED AT THIS POINT.

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A PARTY, NOT ALLOWED TO -- NO WONDER PEOPLE ARE DEPRESSED, BECAUSE THEY ARE SITTING THERE WATCHING NETFLIX AND WATCHING THE DEPRESSING NEWS ALL THE TIME INSTEAD OF DOING THOSE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING SOCIAL INTERACTION.

I DO, I PLAN THE CDC AND ALL OF THOSE WHO HAVE KEPT CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY, YOU THINK ABOUT -- AGAIN, I'M A MOTHER OF FIVE.

OF GOT TEENAGE KIDS.

AND I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED TO TEENAGERS HAS BEEN COMPLETELY CRUEL OVER THE LAST YEAR, TWO CHILDREN I THINK IT'S BEEN CRUEL AND CRAZY AND NOT BASED ON SCIENCE.

THE IDEA THAT MY SIX-YEAR-OLD SON IS STILL WEARING A MASK AND IS NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY ON THE PLAYGROUND, NOT ALLOWED TO TOUCH ANOTHER CHILD WHEN THERE IS ESSENTIALLY ZERO RISK OF COVID FOR ANY OF THESE CHILDREN, THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD PUT IN POWER ANOTHER TWO YEARS OF PEOPLE WHO I THINK DON'T CARE ABOUT -- LIKE TOTALLY DO NOT PRIORITIZE CHILDREN'S MENTAL HEALTH, EDUCATIONAL HEALTH, PARTICULARLY LOW-INCOME PARENTS, THEY COULD NOT CARE LESS.

SO I FINALLY -- FEEL LIKE IT'S CRAZY TO THINK ABOUT EXPANDING GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IN EDUCATING OUR KIDS.

I ALSO HOPE THAT AMERICANS WILL SAY TO THEMSELVES, WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP THIS MUCH FREEDOM AGAIN [CROSS TALK] >> Megan: CAN I SAY SOMETHING?

WE HAVE A NEW ADMINISTRATION AND THEY SET OUT WITH A VERY, VERY AGGRESSIVE GOAL ON GETTING SHOTS AND ARMS.

IT'S COMPLETELY CHANGED THE ENVIRONMENT.

YES, IT DID INVOLVE A FEW RULES THAT, YOU KNOW, WERE USED TO BEING CALLED SNOWFLAKES, BUT I REALLY HAVE TO GIGGLE AT THESE LIKE, BIG MEN WHO ARE, LIKE, JUST SO UPSET ABOUT WEARING A MASK.

UNLIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU GUYS, WE ARE OFFER ONE.

LET'S JUST PULL TOGETHER.

IT'S A CRISIS.

WE ARE AMERICANS.

LET'S BE A LITTLE GENEROUS.

LET'S LISTEN TO THE SCIENCE.

AND I FIND THAT THERE IS A LOT OF -- THERE IS A FEELING OF OPTIMISM NOW BECAUSE WE HAVE A TANGIBLE PROOF, THAT WE HAVE MADE THE SIGN SPECIAL CHINO, WHAT THE SCIENTISTS TELL US WILL DO PROGRESS IN THIS PANDEMIC.

AND TO BE THERE CRITICIZING EVERY DECISION A POLICYMAKER MAKES, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE NOT -- I HAPPENED TO BE MARRIED TO ONE, SO I TAKE IT A LITTLE PERSONALLY.

THEY ARE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN AND I KNOW DONNA, WHEN SHE WAS IN CONGRESS, DID THE BEST SHE COULD.

IT'S A TERRIBLE CRISIS.

AND TO BE SITTING THERE SECOND-GUESSING EVERY DECISION, AT LEAST DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE.

UNDER TRUMP, HE DENIED IT WAS HAPPENING, HE SAID IT WOULD GO AWAY, HE PROMOTED FALSE NARRATIVES.

SO I'M ACTUALLY VERY GRATEFUL.

>> Carrie: WHICH IS FUNNY BECAUSE [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: FROM WOMEN IN THE PANDEMIC TO THE POPE: THE VATICAN HAS WARNED THE U.S. BISHOPS NOT TO RUSH INTO PLANS TO CONDEMN CATHOLIC POLITICIANS WHO SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO ABORTION.

AMERICAN BISHOPS ARE CONSIDERING SENDING A MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SPEAKER PELOSI AND OTHER PRO-CHOICE CATHOLICS, TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD NOT RECEIVE COMMUNION IF THEY CONTINUE TO SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.

THE U.S. BISHOPS ARE DIVIDED.

THE VATICAN HAS WARNED THEM NOT TO MOVE AHEAD UNLESS THEY ARE UNANIMOUS.

THE VATICAN ALSO QUESTIONED WHETHER ABORTION SHOULD BE LABELED AS THE PREEMINENT MORAL ISSUE AS HE WAS BISHOPS HAVE LABELED IT.

MEGHAN, YOU HAVE LEFT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR REASONS KIND OF SIMILAR TO THIS.

TELL US ABOUT IT.

>> Megan: WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN MY HUSBAND RAN FOR OFFICE, YOU KNOW, BOTH OF US HAD BEEN JUST CATHOLIC SCHOOLS FOR 13 YEARS.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT JUST BECAME VERY PUNISHING.

THERE WAS A PARISH HERE IN ALEXANDRIA WHERE THEY WERE PUTTING NOTES ON CARS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN OFFICE IN TELLING THEM THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, COULDN'T TAKE COMMUNION, AND THEN I WAS AT A PICNIC -- >> Bonnie: IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO, RIGHT?

>> Megan: OH, YEAH.

THAT IS 1993.

AND THEN ANOTHER TIME I WAS AT A PICNIC AND I HAD -- YOU KNOW, A PRIEST CHASED ME OFF THE PROPERTY OF JUST WHAT WAS A COMMUNITY PICNIC.

IT WAS ON CHURCH GROUNDS.

LIKE I WAS SOME KIND OF PARIETAL BECAUSE I WAS, YOU KNOW, I WASN'T SUPPORTING A DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.

SO I REMEMBER WHEN JOHN KENNEDY RAN FOR PRESIDENT AND EVERYONE WAS SO AFRAID THAT HE WOULD BRING, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD BE SERVING THE VATICAN?

AND HE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE AND HOW, YOU KNOW, THE CHURCH HAS A 501(C)(3) STATUS AND OF COURSE IT WOULD NEVER WANT TO IMPERIL THAT TAX-EXEMPT STATUS BY GETTING INVOLVED IN POLITICS WHEN THIS IS OVER FAR BEYOND THAT NOW AND IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THE POPE UNDERSTANDS THE DANGER ON MANY, MANY LEVELS BECAUSE -- >> Bonnie: THE VATICAN IS CLEARLY ACTING MORE LIBERAL THAN THE U.S. BISHOPS AT THIS POINT, WHICH IS JUST SHOCKING TO ME, BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT KENNEDY AND, AND MANY LATER YEARS, FOR YEARS AFTER THAT, THE AMERICAN BISHOPS AND PRELATES WERE MUCH, MUCH MORE LIBERAL THAN THE VATICAN.

AND IT'S ALL SWITCHED.

IS THAT BECAUSE OF TWO POPES AGAIN, WE STARTED WITH TWO CONSERVATIVES POPES AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAVE A LIBERAL POPE AND WHO THEY ARE APPOINTING AS BISHOPS?

>> Megan: I THINK IT DOES COME FROM THE TOP AND I THINK THAT THIS POPE -- THERE WAS A BOOK WRITTEN ABOUT KENNEDY WORK KENNEDY ONCE SAID, LISTEN, I CAMPAIGNED WITH THE NUNS!

BELIEVE ME, IF THERE WERE NO NUNS, THIS WOULD BE A VERY REPUBLICAN -- THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WOULD BE VERY, VERY REPUBLICAN.

AND HE SAID THE NUNS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE ALL ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE, THE ACTS OF CHRIST, YOU KNOW, MOTHER TERESA WORKING FOR THE POOR, THEY WERE OBSESSED WITH POVERTY AND ALLEVIATING PAIN.

AND THEN IN THE '70s, WHEN OTHER RELIGIONS GAVE WOMEN A PATH TO LEADERSHIP, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DECIDED NOT TO ALLOW WOMEN TO BECOME PRIESTS.

YOU KNOW, WE LOST A LOT OF THE NUNS AND I DO THINK THE CHARACTER OF THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED.

>> Bonnie: OTHER -- OTHERS' TAKE ON THIS, PLEASE.

>> Linda: WANT TO JUMP IN ON THIS, BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE MISSING HERE IS THAT THE CHECK CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS A BELIEF IN INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE POPE IS SAYING IS THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE UP TO OTHERS TO JUDGE THE CONSCIENCE OF SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THEMSELVES TO BE A FAITHFUL CATHOLIC AND TAKES COMMUNION.

I THINK THAT'S REALLY GOOD.

I DON'T WANT OTHER PEOPLE TRYING TO GET INSIDE OUR LEADERS' CONSCIENCES.

AND THEY -- YOU KNOW, GOD JUDGES, AND I THINK THAT BISHOPS TRYING TO MAKE OTHERS SORT OF AN EXAMPLE IN TRYING TO FORCE OTHERS TO PUBLICLY STATE WHAT THEY BELIEVE, I THINK IT VIOLATES THE ROLE OF CONSCIENCE IN THE INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE.

>> Bonnie: WELL, IS IT NOT ALSO, DONNA EDWARDS, ABOUT FILLING THE PEWS?

BECAUSE AS WE ALL KNOW IN EUROPE, WHERE WOMEN ARE, BY AND LARGE, MUCH BETTER EDUCATED, THEY HAVE MORE POSTGRADUATE DEGREES THAN WE DO HERE ON AVERAGE, THE PEWS ARE EMPTYING OUT.

AND SO, THIS IS ONE MORE PUSH THAT THE CONSERVATIVE PRELATES WANT TO MAKE, THAT THE POPE MUST BE WONDERING , HOW MANY MILLIONS OF CATHOLIC SEMI GOING TO PUSH OUT OF THE RELIGION IF THEY GO FORWARD WITH THIS, DENYING COMMUNION TO OBSERVING AND FAITHFUL CATHOLIC POLITICIANS?

>> Donna: WELL, AND THIS POST HAS BEEN SO MUCH MORE FOCUSED ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL TEACHING AND ON THAT BEING -- THOSE BEING THE GUIDING PRINCIPLES OF HOW HE RELATES TO CATHOLICS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND I THINK THAT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, THE PAST TWO, TWO POPES HAVE BEEN WAY MORE CONSERVATIVE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE BISHOPS.

IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE UNITED STATES WAS ALREADY HEMORRHAGING PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THIS SORT OF RIGIDITY.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, MEGHAN IS ONE EXAMPLE, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY MILLIONS OF OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD WERE JUST LEAVING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE LEAVING THEIR GOD, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE LEAVING THEIR FAITH, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE LEAVING THIS RIGIDITY OF THE CHURCH.

AND I THINK IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN A CHURCH IS TRYING TO DO, AS LINDA HAS SAID, WHICH IS GETTING TO LEADERS' HEADS AS OPPOSED TO LOOKING AT THEIR DEEDS AND LETTING ONE'S OWN CONSCIENCE BE THE GUIDE.

EVEN AS A CANDIDATE, I WAS ONE OFF OF CATHOLIC CHURCH GROUNDS, EVEN WHEN INVITED BY NUNS OR INVITED BY PARISHIONERS, BECAUSE OF MY SUPPORT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS.

AND SO, THIS EVEN GOES BEYOND JUST CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS, BUT IS BECOMING RAMPANT IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I JUST DON'T THINK IT SUSTAINABLE.

>> Megan: AND CAN I SAY ONE THING HERE?

>> Bonnie: CAREY, FINAL THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC?

>> Carrie: THAT'S OKAY.

I WILL LET MEGHAN SPEAK.

I'M NOT A CATHOLIC.

I WILL LET YOU GUYS WITH MORE KNOWLEDGE ON THIS TALK IT OUT.

>> Megan: WELL, I JUST HEARD EVERYBODY I KNOW IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN COULD BRING ME BACK TO THE CHURCH.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I REALLY THINK THAT HE'S THE WEEKLY COMMUNICANT, IF NOT MORE.

IS ALWAYS SHOWING SUCH CHRISTLIKE INTEREST IN THE POOR AND PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP.

AND SO, THAT'S THE IRONY.

AND HE IS THE ONE THAT I WANT TO GIVE COMMUNION TO NOW.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL.

THANK YOU, CARRIE LUKAS.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT IN 30 YEARS OF DOING THIS PROGRAM, I THINK YOU'RE THE FIRST PERSON WHO EVER SEATED YOUR TIME TO ANOTHER FABULOUS -- >> Carrie: THANK YOU!

>> Bonnie: THAT WAS VERY, VERY POLITE OF YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT.

WE LOVE THAT.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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