[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

WITH US IN OUR WOMEN THOUGHT LEADERS SERIES THIS WEEK IS BROOKE BALDWIN, WHO HAS ANCHORED A SHOW, AND AFTERNOON SHOW AT CNN FOR A DECADE AND IS ABOUT TO LEAVE.

SHE HAS A NEW BOOK OUT CALLED "HUDDLE."

ALL RIGHT, BROOKE.

TELL ME WHY "HUDDLE", A TERM USUALLY APPLIED A GUEST FOR FOOTBALL PLAYERS, WHY SHOULD WOMEN HUDDLE?

>> Brooke: BONNIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON AND, GOSH, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU ARE RIGHT.

I PICKED THE WORD, IT WAS HER INTENTION ABOUT USING THE WORD HUDDLE BECAUSE YOU ASSOCIATE MASCULINITY, A BUNCH OF DUDES ON A FOOTBALL FIELD.

DECIDED, WHAT IF WE AS WOMEN FLIP THIS WORLD UPSIDE DOWN, FEMINIZE IT AND OWN IT?

TO ME IT IS A NOUN, IT IS A VERB, AND IS INSPIRATIONAL.

A HUDDLE CAN BE TWO WOMEN, IT CAN BE 2000 WOMEN.

IT CAN BE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN COMING TOGETHER, LINKING ARMS IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE IN SOME SORT, WHETHER IT IS HOLLYWOOD AND ACTIVISM THERE IN WASHINGTON ON CAPITOL HILL, OR IT CAN BE WOMEN SITTING SILENTLY IN A CHURCH BASEMENT TOGETHER, JUST QUIETLY LEANING ON ONE OF THE FIRST STRENGTH.

AND I WANT TO CREATE A MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY TO INSPIRE MILLIONS OF WOMEN TO HUDDLE.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN JUST EMOTIONAL STRENGTH OR -- >> Brooke: NO.

>> Bonnie: -- ARE YOU ADVISING WOMEN TO MAKE FRIENDS WHO HAVE JOBS OR IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY CAN -- THEY ARE IN THE SAME CAREER AND CAN HELP EACH OTHER OUT?

>> Brooke: WHEN YOU READ THE BOOK, I TAKE READERS ON A JOURNEY FROM THIS PHENOMENAL GROUP OF BLACK WOMEN JUDGES IN HOUSTON, TEXAS, SO HUDDLING WHEN IT COMES TO CAMPAIGNS AND CHANGING THE FACE OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY TO -- I TAKE READERS TO LOS ANGELES WHERE I GOT THIS INSIDE ACCESS TO A WRITERS' ROOM FOR SO LISTINGS BOOK "LITTLE FIRES EVERYWHERE."

IT WAS A RARITY, UNICORN EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE IT WAS WOMEN IN THIS ROOM WRITING THE EXPERIENCES OF THREE WOMEN PROTAGONISTS, THREE MOTHERS, WHICH IS ALSO SO UNIQUE IN HOLLYWOOD.

THIS WAS ALL PUT ON FROM REESE WITHERSPOON AND HER ALL-FEMALE PRODUCTION COMPANY, HELLO SUNSHINESO HOLLYWOOD AND I MIGHT SAY, IT WAS A WONDERFUL SERIES.

>> Bonnie: >> Brooke: SO GOOD!

I WATCHED IT -- ACTUALLY, I HAD COVID A YEAR AGO AND THAT GOT ME TO THE TAIL END OF BEATING COVID, WAS WATCHING THE SHOW AND WEEPING WITH THESE WOMEN TO -- TALK TO ATHLETES LIKE MEGAN RAPINOE, HER PARTNER, SUE BIRD, WOMEN IN HOCKEY, BASKETBALL, AND OF COURSE IN SOCCER, TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN AMPLIFYING ONE ANOTHER, RIGHT?

HOW THEY ARE ALL WORKING TOGETHER ACROSS SPORTS TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR EVERYONE IN TERMS OF COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT, RIGHT, ENHANCING WOMEN'S RIGHTS WITHIN EACH OF THE SPORTS, BUT ALSO JUST MAKING SURE THEY ARE LEAVING THEIR TEAMS AND THEIR SPORTS BETTER THAN THEY FOUND IT FOR THE YOUNGER WOMEN AND YOUNGER GENERATIONS TOO, YOU KNOW, LEGISLATION AND ON CAPITOL HILL WHERE I TALKED TO FIVE WOMEN, FIVE MODERATE DEMOCRATS WHO HAVE NOW ALL BEEN REELECTED, HAVE ALL HUDDLED TO BE ELECTED, WHICH IS SUCH A RARITY TO HAVE WOMEN JOIN FORCES TO CAMPAIGN TOGETHER.

IN FACT, THEIR OWN PARTY DID NOT REALLY WANT THEM TO DO THAT, BUT THEY DID IT NONETHELESS AND THEY HAVE THIS SHARED EXPERIENCE OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND -- OR U.S. VETERANS, SO U.S. MILITARY.

MY POINT, BONNIE, IS THE HUDDLE IS THROUGHOUT VARIOUS SECTORS OF SOCIETY AND I END THE WHOLE BOOK WITH FRIENDSHIP, OF COURSE, SO WE CAN HUDDLE.

AND I DID NOT HAVE A HUDDLE.

I HAVE NOT HAD A HUDDLE IN YEARS IN MY OWN LIFE GREW UP HAVING -- WAY BACK IN MY GIRL HEAD, I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED GIRLS, WOMEN, FELT VERY COMFORTABLE IN THAT SPACE.

BUT THROUGH MY 20s, YOU KNOW, LIKE A TELEVISION, IS A TOUGH GIG AND I MOVED -- >> Bonnie: YOU MENTIONED THAT GROWING UP YOU HAD GROUPS OF GIRLFRIENDS, WHICH I FIND REALLY INTERESTING.

>> Brooke: I GREW UP WITH GIRLFRIENDS!

WHEN I THINK BACK TO MY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL, I DID IT ALL.

LIKE I WAS THE KID DANCING, GYMNASTICS, SOCCER, NOT ALL VERY WELL, BUT I WAS SO -- I LOVED BEING AROUND GIRLS AND I WAS THE PRESIDENT OF MY CLASS PROBABLY MORE TIMES THAN IS NORMAL, BUT I JUST LOVE LEADING WOMEN.

CUT TO I LEAVE COLLEGE, AND SO WHEN ALL OF MY FRIENDS, MY GIRLFRIEND'S ARE LEAVING THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL AND THEY ARE ALL OFF TO -- YOU KNOW, TO MOVE TO NEW YORK CITY TOGETHER AND BUILD WALLS IN THE EAST VILLAGE APARTMENTS IN THE TOGETHER AND HAVE THEIR SEX AND THE CITY LIFE, I INSTEAD MOVED TO SMALL-TOWN AMERICA AND THEN MIDDLE AMERICA AND THEN LARGER CITY AMERICA WHERE I PUT CAREER FIRST, AND THAT WAS ME.

THAT WAS MY CHOICE.

BUT AS A RESULT, YOU KNOW, I AM GOING TO BED AT 7:00 AT NIGHT TO WAKE UP FOR A SHOW, YOU KNOW, WHERE I HAVE TO LEAVE AT 2:00 A.M..

I'M A ONE-WOMAN NEWSROOM.

LET'S JUST SAY I DID NOT HAVE SUCH A LIFE, GREAT LIFE, I CERTAINLY WAS NOT SITTING AROUND WITH MY GIRLFRIENDS FOR HAPPY HOUR.

SO I WAS LONELY A LOT OF MY 20s INTO MY 30s UNTIL REALLY WRITING THIS BOOK, I HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY SINGULAR GIRLFRIENDS AROUND THE COUNTRY BUT IT -- IT WAS NOT UNTIL I WAS 38 THAT I GOT THEM ALL TOGETHER IN ONE ROOM, WHICH WAS JUST ON THE PRECIPICE OF MY WRITING THIS BOOK.

AND AS I BECAME SO CONSCIOUS OF THIS CONCEPT, HUDDLE, AND AS A SPONGE, AS A JOURNALIST, TO TAKE IT ALL AND IN ALL OF MY INTERVIEWS, I DID SOME REAL SOUL SEARCHING FOR MYSELF AND ACTIVATED MY OWN HUDDLE AND TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

AND YOU -- WHAT ARE WOMEN SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE HUDDLES?

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IT FOR POLITICAL ACTIVISM OR FRIENDSHIP OR EMOTIONAL SUPPORT WHEN WOMEN GO THROUGH TOUGH TIMES, AS WE ALL DO, FOR FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY?

>> Brooke: IT'S ALL OF THE DATA JUST OUTLINED.

YOU WANT ME TO TALK ABOUT A SPECIFIC HUDDLE OR -- >> Bonnie: WELL -- >> Brooke: BECAUSE IT'S ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> Bonnie: WELL, IT'S LEADING UP TO A QUESTION -- I DON'T MEAN TO BE A BLUE MEENY TERM, FOR MY GENERATION, YEAH, FROM THE BEATLES' SONG, BUT IT -- HUDDLES SOUNDS TERRIFIC.

BUT YOU THINK THIS IS NEW?

BECAUSE LET ME JUST READ YOUR -- AND WHAT ABOUT THE WAY YOU WANT TO DO IT IS NEW, BUT I LOOKED UP SOMETHING, I LOOKED UP ONLINE HISTORY OF THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENTS.

THE STAGGERING FOR CHANGES THAT HAVE COME ABOUT OVER SEVEN GENERATIONS IN FAMILY LIFE AND RELIGION AND GOVERNMENT AND EMPLOYMENT AND EDUCATION, THESE CHANGES DID NOT HAPPEN SPONTANEOUSLY.

WOMEN THEMSELVES MADE THESE CHANGES HAPPEN VERY DELIBERATELY.

WOMEN HAVE NOT BEEN THE PASSIVE RECIPIENTS OF MIRACULOUS CHANGES IN THE LAW AND HUMAN NATURE.

SEVEN GENERATIONS OF WOMEN HAVE COME TOGETHER TO AFFECT THESE CHANGES IN THE MOST DEMOCRATIC WAYS.

AND I ASK YOU BECAUSE IN YOUR BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE WOMEN'S MARCH THE DAY AFTER DONALD TRUMP'S INAUGURATION -- >> Brooke: INAUGURATION.

>> Bonnie: -- WHICH TO ME WAS ALL ABOUT THIS VERY ANTI-FEMALE POLITICIAN.

I MEAN, HE HATES WOMEN.

HE REALLY DOES.

THEY ARE GOOD FOR SEX AND FOR BEING SHOWN AROUND ON HIS ARM, AND THAT'S ABOUT IT.

IT'S UNLESS IS HIS DAUGHTER.

BUT TO ME, THAT WHOLE THING, ALL OF THE #METOO BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, THAT WAS ALL BECAUSE WOMEN WERE SO ANGRY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP HAVING BEEN ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY.

>> Brooke: SURE.

SO WHEN YOU READ THE FIRST CHAPTER OF MY BOOK, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE WOMEN'S MARCH AND THAT'S HOW I HAVE MY OWN PERSONAL MOMENT AND I HAD BEEN COVERING THAT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, CRISSCROSSING THE COUNTRY, GETTING TO 2016.

I HAD BEEN PART OF BERNIE RALLIES, TALKED TO WOMEN WHO WENT TO SEE THE GLASS SHAPED CEILING SHADOW.

YOU LOOK AT HOW MANY NUMBERS OF WHITE WOMEN VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.

RIGHT?

TO ME AS A JOURNALIST, I NOTICED WOMEN SHOWING UP AT POLITICAL EVENTS IN A WAY THAT I HAD NOT SEEN.

AND IS JUST MY OWN EXPERIENCE.

I HAD NOTICED IN MY LIFETIME.

AND SO, I PUT MY REPORTER CAP ON AND WAS THINKING, WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH WOMEN?

SOMETHING SPECIAL IS HAPPENING WITH WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THAT WAS SORT OF THE UNOFFICIAL BEGINNING OF MY JOURNEY.O YOUR POINT, AND OF COURSE WOMEN'S HISTORY, LIKE I, BONNIE, TOTALLY SCHOOLED MYSELF ON THE HISTORY OF HUDDLING AMONG WOMEN IN AMERICA.

TWO POINTS ON THE: NUMBER ONE, OBVIOUSLY I AM A WHITE WOMAN.

AND SO, WHEN THEY SPOKE TO CHRISTIAN GOSK, WHO IS A PROFESSOR AT DUKE, SHE SAID TO ME SPECIFICALLY WHEN IT COMES TO WHITE WOMEN, THERE HAS BEEN A HUDDLE DROUGHT FOR THREE DECADES, WHICH HAPPENED TO COINCIDE WITH MY LIFE.

SO STARTED IN THE '80S.

I AM BORN IN 1979.

'80s, '90s, AND 2000!

WHICH HE SAID TO ME AS WE LOOK BACK TO THE '50s ANYTHING ABOUT BETTY CROCKER AND JUNE CLEAVER, YOU KNOW, THE STEREOTYPE IS NEIGHBORHOOD MAKING APPLE HAVE HIGH FOR THE HUSBANDS, BUT IN ACTUALITY THEY WERE HELPING THOSE WHITE FENCES AND HEADING TO LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTER MEETINGS AND WERE INCREDIBLY ACTIVE, RIGHT?

YOU MEASURE WOMEN'S ACTIVITY BASED UPON HOW OFTEN THEY WOULD TESTIFY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS FOR A MULTITUDE OF ISSUES.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHITE WOMEN, COMES WORD OF THE LIEN IN ERA, THEY WOULD GO TO THE WORKPLACE, THEY WOULD LEAN IN, YOU KNOW, SO HARD THEY WOULD SMACK THEIR HEAD, RIGHT, AND THEN ALLOWED THEM BECAME OTHERS.

A LOT OF THEM STAYED AT HOME.

THE ACTIVISM WEANED ON WHITE WOMEN.

SHE POINTED OUT TO ME, UNTIL SORT AROUND 20 10.

I'M CRISSCROSSING THE COUNTRY NOTICING THIS FOR FIVE YEARS LATER.

BLACK WOMEN HAVE A HIT RICH HISTORY OF HUDDLING THIS COUNTRY, AS I'VE LEARNED THROUGH VARIOUS HUDDLES OF BLACK WOMEN WHO I WAS PRIVILEGED TO MEET THROUGH THIS BOOK, ESPECIALLY THE HISTORIAN KIMBERLY SPRINGER WAS EXPLAINED TO ME THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS GOES BACK -- THIS PRETTY SLAVERY.

OF COURSE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT SLAVERY AND BLACK WOMEN WERE ALL THEY HAD, BUT IT WAS MORE THAN THAT.

IT PREDATED SLAVERY AND THAT BLACK WOMEN JUST GENUINELY ENJOYED AND REVELED IN THE COMPANY OF ONE ANOTHER.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK THROUGH HOUSE ESPECIALLY LIKE WOMEN IN THE '80s AND '90s WERE HUDDLING WITH WOMENIST MOVEMENT, BLACK WOMEN'S HEALTH INITIATIVE, THE LINKS ORGANIZATION, THINK OF BLACK SORORITIES AND OF COURSE THE MILLION WOMEN MARCH IN PHILADELPHIA 1987, WHICH WAS THIS AMAZING GRASSROOTS EFFORT, HALF A MILLION PEOPLE WHICH RIVALED WHAT WE SAW IN WASHINGTON IN JANUARY 2017, THAT HAS EXISTED.

AND SO, I JUST WANT TO EDUCATE AS I HAVE SELF EDUCATED, I WANT TO SHARE THE HISTORY OF HUDDLING AMONG WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY IN THIS BOOK.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT YOU HAVING WOMEN HUDDLE VERSUS WOMEN LEADING IN WITH SHERYL SANDBERG?

>> Brooke: IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT LEANING IN, LEANING IN AND HUDDLING IS TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS, RIGHT?

AND I'VE SUCH ADMIRATION FOR SHERYL SANDBERG, BUT THE IDEAS THAT WOULD BE -- LEANING IN IS WHAT WOMEN DID IN THE OFFICE AS INDIVIDUALS IN MORE OF A MALE DOMINATED SPACE, RIGHT?

IT'S LIKE PRETTY MUCH AT WORK, IT WAS A BOYS' CLUB CREATED BY POISON YOU WOULD BE FIGHTING AS A INDIVIDUAL WOMAN FOR A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

WITH A HUDDLE, IT IS HAVING A TIGHTKNIT OF WOMEN, THE HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW DID A STUDY IN 2019.

WOMEN ARE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN EXECUTIVE LEVEL POSITIONS IF THEY HAVE A HUDDLE, IF THEY HAVE A TRIBE AT WORK.

SO THE IDEA WITH HUDDLE AS OPPOSED TO LIEN IN IS GRAB YOUR TRIBE AT WORK, LOOK OUT FROM ANOTHER, SHOW UP VULNERABLY.

DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK FOR HELP.

BE OPEN ABOUT SALARIES.

IF ONE WOMAN SUCCEEDS, THE OTHER WOMAN SUCCEED!

INSTEAD OF FIGHTING FOR THE ONE SEAT AT THE TABLE FOR A WOMAN, IT'S ABOUT BUILDING A BIGGER TABLE FULL OF SEATS FOR WOMEN.

> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S BECAUSE WOMEN WOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT NOW?

AND I AM A LOT OLDER THAN YOU ARE.

I AM TWENTYSOMETHING, MAYBE 30 YEARS OLDER.

AND DO YOU THINK WOMEN CAN DO THAT NOW AS OPPOSED TO IN MY ERA?

LIKE, I WAS AN NBC CORRESPONDENT IN ATLANTA IN THE EARLY '80s WHEN CNN WAS JUST STARTING.

AND WOMEN DID NOT TEND TO HUDDLE.

>> Brooke: NO.

>> Bonnie: IT WAS EVERYBODY WANTED TO BE THE FIRST THIS, AND IT WAS COMPETITIVE.

IT WAS NOT COOPERATIVE.

>> Brooke: THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, BONNIE.

YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD.

THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN NOTICING, IS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN A SHIFT.

AND I TAKE READERS ON THIS JOURNEY THROUGH THE BOOK OF THE OPPOSITE OF SHARP ELBOWS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU DESCRIBED COMING UP AS A CORRESPONDENT AT NBC.

AND EVEN FOR ME, STARTING OUT AS A CUB REPORTER, YOU KNOW, 21, 22 YEARS AGO WHERE, MAN, LIKE THAT WAS MY EDUCATION IF YOU GOTTA HAVE SHARP ELBOWS.

THEY ARE FEW WOMEN AND THEY WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE NAIL FOR A BID OR AN ASSIGNMENT, AND AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S HOW MY MOM RAISED ME, BUT I HAVE ALWAYS DESCRIBED TO THE ABUNDANCE MENTALITY, AND THAT WAS A REAL WAKE-UP CALL FOR ME STARTING OUT IN THIS INCREDIBLY CUTTHROAT, YOU KNOW, PROFESSION THAT IS TV NEWS.

BUT I THINK THE SHIFT HAS HAPPENED, AND I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T HAVE LIKE A BING, LIGHTBULB MOMENT, TALISIA NATION MOMENT FOR YOU LIKE, AHA, IT WAS THIS THAT WOMEN STARTED TO HUDDLE.

BUT THROUGH THE STORY I TELL YOU IN THIS BOOK IS SUCCESSFUL WOMEN HUDDLE.

I COULD GIVE YOU A MILLION EXAMPLES OF THAT.

SUCCESSFUL WOMEN HUDDLE.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT REESE WITHERSPOON'S THEME PRODUCTION COMPANIES.

>> Brooke: SO REESE WITHERSPOON STARTED THIS PRODUCTION COMPANY RIGHT AROUND THE TIME, YOU KNOW, WHEN EVERYTHING WAS SWELLING OF THIS COUNTRY WITH ME TOO, TIMES UP, YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAVE, THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS OF 2018 AND THEY HAD EVER BEEN MORE WOMEN RUNNING FOR ELECTION EVER.

AND SO, SOMETHING IS BREWING IN AMERICA WITH WOMEN, RIGHT?

AND SO REESE WITHERSPOON HAS THIS IDEA, IN FACT, SHE SAID IT'S THE SCARIEST THING SHE HAS DONE IN HER LIFE WHICH IS INVEST A LOT OF MONEY INTO THIS ALL WOMEN PRODUCTION COMPANY CALLED HELLO SUNSHINE.

AND THEIR WHOLE EAT THOSE IS PUTTING WOMEN THAT THE CENTER OF THE STORY.

YOU THINK OF HOW -- IS ACTUALLY SHOCKING, BECAUSE I'M A BIG FAN OF TV SHOWS AND MOVIES, RIGHT?

I LIKE TO ESCAPE IT AND ENJOY IT.

IT'S SURPRISING HOW MANY, YOU KNOW, FILMS, A, HAVE A WOMAN AT THE CENTER OF THE STORY AND HOW MANY WOMEN WRITE THOSE WOMEN'S ROLES.

SO SHE WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY OPTION BOOKS WRITTEN BY WOMEN.

OFTENTIMES WOMEN THAT PEOPLE HAVE NOT HEARD OF, THEY PUT THEM ON THE BOOK CLUB, THE REESE WITHERSPOON BOOK CLUB BOOK, WHICH IS HONESTLY VIRTUAL HUDDLE RIGHT NOW ON THE PANDEMIC AND SHE WANTS WOMEN TO FEEL THAT THEY ARE PART OF SOMETHING DURING THE TIME WHEN WE ARE JUST GASPING FOR CONNECTION, TO OPTIONING THESE BOOKS AS TV SERIES OR MOVIES.

WE TALKED ABOUT LITTLE FIRES EVERYWHERE WHERE, YOU KNOW, HOW RARE IS IT THAT YOU HAVE A TV SERIES WHERE THREE WOMEN ARE AT THE CENTER OF THE STORY AND THOSE THREE WOMEN ARE MOTHERS?

ND THEY WANTED TO REFLECT TO THE DEGREE OF THE BEHIND-THE-SCENES OF WOMEN WRITING THOSE ROLES AND NOT JUST WOMEN, THEY NEEDED TO HAVE BLACK WOMEN, THEY NEEDED TO HAVE ASIAN AMERICAN WOMEN, THEY NEEDED TO HAVE WOMEN WHO HAD BEEN ADOPTED OR GOING THROUGH THE ADOPTION PROCESS, THEY HAD MOTHERS, SO THEY COULD WRITE THOSE ROLES ACCURATELY AND RICHLY.

AND EVEN ON TOP OF THAT, I WAS TALKING TO SOME OF THESE WOMEN IN THE RIGHT ROOM FOR THE SHOW AND THEY WERE SAYING TO ME, BROOKS, WE HAVE BEEN IN SO MANY OF THESE MALE DOMINATED WRITERS ROOMS AND PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO THIS JUST LIKE WORKLIFE GENERAL WHERE YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY MEN AND YOU HAVE THAT INTERNAL DIALOGUE.

IT'S LIKE, OKAY, IF I SPEAK UP AND I DON'T LIKE THAT POINT THEY ARE MAKING, WILL I SOUND LIKE A b-i-t-c-h?

LIKE HOW WILL THIS COME OFF?

IS WILL THIS COME OFF AS VERBAL JUJITSU WASTING YOUR THING, AND IT'S LIKE WASTING HALF OF YOUR TIME WHEN YOU REALLY WISH YOU COULD JUST BE YOU KNOW HAVING A MIND MELD AND CREATING WITH THESE PEOPLE TO TO WRITE THE BEST SHOW POSSIBLE AND SO ALL OF THAT IN AN ALL-FEMALE WRITER'S ROOM BONNIE IS LIKE OUT THE DOOR AND THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE AMAZING.

>> Bonnie: AMAZING.

SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TURN THIS INTO POLITICS?

ARE YOU GOING -- WHEN YOU LEAVE CNN, HOW ARE YOU IN MID APRIL -- YOU GOING TO USE WHAT YOU DISCOVERED TO TRY TO IMPROVE WOMEN POLITICALLY?

WHAT IS YOUR NEXT STEP?

>> Brooke: WHAT IS MY NEXT STEP?

THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I DON'T ONLY KNOW.

I'M JUST BEING COMPLETELY HONEST WITH YOU.

PART OF THE REASON WHY A THINK I HAD -- PART OF THE REASON WHY I THINK I NEED TO LEAVE THIS PLACE, LIKE I'M SITTING IN MY CNN OFFICE, THIS HOME, THIS FAMILY.

I DID NOT ARRIVE AT THIS PLACE LATELY.

BUT IT WAS THIS JOURNEY OF THIS -- TWO YEAR JOURNEY OF WRITING THIS BOOK, AND YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU INTERVIEW -- I SPENT ALL OF MY WAKING HOURS OUTSIDE OF THE ONE OR TWO HOURS WERE I'M TALKING ABOUT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, COVID OR POLITICS OR EVERYTHING ELSE, I HAVE THROWN MYSELF INTO THIS BOOK PROJECT AND IF YOU CAN HELP.

AND BEING IN A SPACE OF THESE WOMEN, LIKE, IT IS SO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE DO AS A DAY JOB WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU DO THE INTERVIEW, YOU MOVE ON, DO YOUR HOMEWORK ON THE NEXT PERSON, YOU MOVE ON.

WITH THIS BOOK, I WOULD INTERVIEW THESE WOMEN AND THEN I WOULD FINISH AND WE WOULD TURN THE TAPE RECORDER OFF AND THEY WOULD THEN TURN THE TABLES ON ME AND THEY WOULD SAY, BROOKE, ALL RIGHT, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

WOULD YOU WANT TO DO?

TELL US ABOUT WHY YOU WANT TO BE A JOURNALIST?

DO YOU HAVE A HUDDLE?

TELL US ABOUT YOUR VOICE AND YOUR PLATFORM.

AND I WAS JUST LIKE, AH!

YOU KNOW?

IT JUST REALLY MADE ME DO SOME DEEP THINKING AND HAVE THAT INTERNAL MONOLOGUE FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS.

AND I CANNOT, BONNIE, STAND IN THE SPACE OF THESE WOMEN AND NOT BE THE BRIGHTEST I POSSIBLY CAN.

SO IT'S PAINFUL TO HAVE TO SAY GOODBYE TO THIS PLACE AND FAMILY I'VE BEEN WITH FOR OVER A DECADE, BUT I FEEL COMPELLED TO MOVE FORWARD.

I DON'T TOTALLY KNOW WHAT I'M DOING.

I WOULD LOVE TO DIVE INTO THE DEEP END OF STORY TELLING -- >> Bonnie: DO YOU RECOGNIZE, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, COMPLEMENT YOU, IT'S JUST A FACT, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE TV INDUSTRY, DO YOU RECOGNIZE HOW BRAVE, HOW MUCH SELF-ESTEEM YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO MAKE THIS JUMP?

IT'S INCREDIBLE.

NOBODY DOES IT.

>> Brooke: THAT MEANS A LOT, SERIOUSLY, COMING FROM YOU.

AS I'M TAKING MY DEEP BREATH AND DOING MY BACK FLIP OFF THE HIGH DIVE, YES, BUT I FEEL THAT I HAVE TO, LIKE, LIVE AND WORK IN MY TRUTH!

I NEED TO FIND SOMETHING THAT IS WHERE I AM FULLY IN ALIGNMENT WITH THE WORK I BELIEVE IN WOMEN.

I BELIEVE EMPOWERED WOMEN EMPOWER WOMEN AND THAT WOMEN CAN CHANGE THE WORLD.

AND SO, I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR YOU FOR EXACTLY WHAT I'M GOING TO DO, BUT I'M HOPING TO TAKE STORIES TAKE THESE AND I WOULD LOVE TO CREATE SOME SORT OF UNSCRIPTED SERIES, YOU KNOW.

IT KILLED ME AS A TV PERSON NOT TO HAVE A CAMERA AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE INTERVIEWS.

ND SO, I WOULD LIKE TO MAYBE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, BUT THAT'S ALL I KNOW.

>> Bonnie: SO TURNED INTO -- YOU DID AMERICAN WOMAN.

>> Brooke: I DID.

>> Bonnie: AMERICAN WOMEN AT CNN.

>> Brooke: I DID, I DID.

>> Bonnie: SO TURN IT INTO SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> Brooke: I WOULD LOVE TO, YOU KNOW, NETFLIX, APPLE, HULU, IF YOU ARE LISTENING... [LAUGHTER] >> Bonnie: WELL, I'M SURE THEY MAY WELL BE, BUT THESE DAYS BEFORE YOU PUBLISH THE BOOK, YOU SELL THE TV RIGHTS.

THAT, YOU GET A LOT MORE MONEY FOR YOUR BOOK WITH IF IT'S ALREADY GOING TO BE A TV PRODUCTION.

BUT A LITTLE LATE FOR THAT ADVICE AT THIS TIME.

BUT, SERIOUSLY, I MEAN, DO YOU -- YOU KNOW, WOMEN -- THEY HAVE BY A SLIM RED ANYWAY NOW REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, THEY CERTAINLY HAVE VOTING RIGHTS, THEY HAVE -- YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE BROKEN 70 BARRIERS THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS AGO, IT WAS ALWAYS THE FIRST WOMAN PILOT TO DO THIS, THE FIRST WOMAN CEO OF A MAJOR CORPORATION, THE FIRST THIS, THE FIRST THAT.

WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF FIRSTS.

>> Brooke: GOOD.

>> Bonnie: SO WHAT IS IT -- AND OF COURSE WOMEN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE QUARTER IS THE FACT THAT WOMEN STILL ARE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED LIKE CRAZY IN THE WORKPLACE, MEN -- A LOT OF MEN EITHER CANNOT FIGHT THEIR NEUROSES ENOUGH TO CONTROL THEMSELVES OR JUST HAVE NOT GOTTEN IT, BUT, I MEAN, IS THAT YOUR GOAL, TO SEE EVERY WOMAN WHO WORKS -- HE STEPS INTO A CORPORATION BE TREATED EQUALLY?

>> Brooke: OF COURSE, THAT WOULD BE MY GOAL TO HAVE A WOMAN BE TREATED EQUALLY.

BUT I THINK THE REAL THRUST OF WHAT I AM DOING IS TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN TO LINK ARMS, TO SHOW UP VULNERABLY, TO BE WILLING TO ASK FOR HELP, TO NOT ALWAYS THINK YOU NEED TO BE INSTAGRAM PERFECT, TO WANT TO STRIVE.

AND IF YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL, AS MEGAN RAPINOE SAYS, TO THROW DOWN YOUR LETTERS, TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE ABUNDANCE MENTALITY, TO BELIEVE THAT IF YOU SHINE IN, I SHINE.

THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO HAVE WOMEN DUE IN NO AND PRACTICE.

TO ME, HUDDLING HAS BECOME A PRACTICE.

LIKE, I MEDITATE EVERY SINGLE MORNING AND IT IS SIMILAR TO THAT.

IT'S A PRACTICE AND THE MINDSET.

>> Bonnie: WHAT DO WOMEN STILL NEED TO GAIN TO REACH PARITY?

>> Brooke: YOU KNOW, I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM A TV NEWS AND CABLE NEWS PERSPECTIVE.

LISTEN, MY EXPERIENCE AT CNN, I HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY RUN HERE AND THANK GOODNESS FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE BELIEVED IN ME AND YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, GIVEN ME A PRETTY PRIVILEGED SPOT EACH AND EVERY DAY FOR OVER A DECADE.

THAT SAID, I DO -- FOR MY DECADE ON THE ANCHOR DESK, MY BOSSES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MEN, MY EXECUTIVE PRODUCER WAS A MAN, THE PERSON WHO'S IN CHARGE OF CNN DAYSIDE IS A MAN, THE HIGHEST-PAID ANCHORS ARE MEN.

WHAT DO I DO WHEN I SIT THERE AND SIT IN THAT CHAIR?

WHO DO I TALK ABOUT THE MOST?

MEN, THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN AMERICA.

AND SO, OBVIOUSLY, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE WOMEN IN CHARGE.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO TV NEWS, MORE WOMEN IN THOSE SEA LEVEL, SEE SWEET OFFICES, BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONES WHO WOULD THEN BE CALLING THE SHOTS, WHO WOULD BE MORE INTERESTED PERHAPS IN WOMEN CONTENT IN TELEVISION.

YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO SOME OF THE BIGGEST MOMENTS ON TELEVISION, A LOT OF TIMES IT IS THE MEN HOSTING THE PROGRAM.

ACTUALLY WILL GIVE MY FRIENDS OVER AT MSNBC A SHADOW BECAUSE I REMEMBER WATCHING ONE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES IN MY FRIEND KRISTEN WELKER WAS THE DEBATE MODERATOR.

AND THEN COMING OUT OF THE DEBATE WAS JOY-ANNE REID, RACHEL MADDOW, AND NICOLLE WALLACE WITH A LITTLE BIT OF BRIAN WILLIAMS.

>> Bonnie: I WAS WATCHING, I WAS WATCHING AFTER ONE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES LAST YEAR AND IT WAS DANNA BASCH AND THE WOMAN -- >> Brooke: ABBY PHILIP.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT, EXACTLY, AND ONE GUY AND TWO WOMEN, WHICH WAS FABULOUS AND THEY, THEY CALLED IT AS IT WAS, WHICH YOUR BUDDY, DANA, USED THE WORD THAT I CANNOT USE.

>> Brooke: OH, MY GOSH!

IT WAS THE BEST, THE BEST MOMENT!

YES, IT WAS AN S SHOW.

SHE SAID AND SHE SAID THE THING THAT WE ALL FELT.

AND OF COURSE THAT CAME FROM THE INDOMITABLE DANA BASH.

BUT THAT'S WHY, A, SHE IS JUST SO DAMN GOOD.

>> Bonnie: IT WAS THE SHORTEST WOMAN IN THE WORLD.

>> Brooke: TINIEST.

>> Bonnie: MOST POWERFUL WOMAN IN THE WORLD AT THE SAME TIME.

SHE IS AMAZING.

>> Brooke: SHE IS THE BEST.

>> Bonnie: WELL, WE ARE OUT OF TIME, BUT I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS INTERVIEW.

IT WILL BE REALLY FUN TO WATCH YOU AND WATCH YOU FIGURE OUT WHERE YOU WANT TO GO NEXT AND WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND HOW HUDDLING IS GOING TO WORK ITSELF INTO ALL OF THAT.

THANK YOU, BROOKE BALDWIN, AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK "HUDDLE".

AND THAT IS IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY.

PLEASE JOIN US ONLINE, FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND FACEBOOKLEASE GO TO OUR PREVIOUS WEBPAGE, WHICH IS WWW.TO THE CONTRARY.ORG.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

>>> FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.