>> Bonnie: ARE THE GOOD OLD BOYS IN THE GRAND OLD PARTY SEXIST AS THEY TRIED TO BATTLE THE HIGHEST-RANKING WOMAN IN GOP LEADERSHIP?

THEN VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS UNVEILS HER STRATEGY FOR CENTRAL AMERICA AS SHE TRIES TO CURB A SURGE OF IMMIGRATION ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES: MOTHER'S DAY WORDS OF WISDOM FROM Eartha Kitt AND HER DAUGHTER, Kitt Shapiro.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, ARE THE GOB'S -- GOOD OLD BOYS -- IN THE GOP SEXIST?

U.S. REPRESENTATIVE LIZ CHENEY IS STANDING FIRM DESPITE MOUNTING PRESSURE FROM OTHER REPUBLICANS TO KICK HER OUT AS CHAIR OF THE HOUSE GOP CONFERENCE.

THAT'S THE THIRD RANKING POSITION IN PARTY LEADERSHIP, HER LIKELY REPLACEMENT CONGRESSWOMAN ELISE STEFANIK OF NEW YORK CHENEY IS UNDER FIRE FOR HER CRITICISM OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LIES ABOUT THE ELECTION.

SHE WAS ALSO ONE OF 10 REPUBLICANS WHO VOTED FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT THIS YEAR.

STEFANIK IS A TRUMP SUPPORTER AND IS CREDITED WITH GETTING MORE REPUBLICAN WOMEN ELECTED TO CONGRESS.

BUT STEFANIK IS MORE OF A MODERATE THAN CHENEY, WHO IS THE DAUGHTER OF VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY.

WITH US TODAY ARE DC DELEGATE CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON; FORMER JUDGE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, DEBORAH CARNAHAN; REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, RINA SHAH BHARARA; AND CARRIE SHEFFIELD, SENIOR FELLOW AT THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM.

SO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, RINA?

ARE THESE GUYS SEXIST, OR IS LIZ CHENEY JUST SPEAKING OUT A BIT TOO MUCH AGAINST TRUMP?

>> Rina: BONNIE, I DON'T THINK THIS ACTUALLY HAS TO DO WITH SEX, THOUGH I THINK THIS IS THE FACT, THAT SHE'S TAKEN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT LINE THAN THEY HAVE.

PUBLICLY SHE'S SAYING IN PUBLIC WHAT MOST ARE WHISPERING IN PRIVATE.

AND THAT'S POLITICALLY INCONVENIENT TO TODAY'S GOP, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOUSE LEADERSHIP, THEY NEED TO SEEM UNITED.

SHE'S MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR LEADER McCARTHY TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE IT SEEM TO NOT JUST THE DEMOCRATS, BUT TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WRIT LARGE, THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND WELL AND THAT THIS GOP IS HEALTHY AND LOOKING FORWARD TO THE FUTURE AS WELL AS TO 2024.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS ELEANOR?

ARE THEY PICKING ON HER BECAUSE SHE'S A WOMAN OR ESPECIALLY PICKING ON HER GOING TOO HARD?

LIKE AN OUTSPOKEN WOMAN WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH THEM?

BEFORE THEY ARE VERY AFRAID THAT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WILL BE PERCEIVED.

AND SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW IS REPLACING HER WITH ANOTHER WOMAN TO TRY AND AUGMENT THAT CRITICISM AND REPRESENTATIVE STEFANIcK FROM NEW YORK, WHOSE ANOTHER WOMAN, WOULD BE THERE RESPONSE TO THE SEXISM ALLEGATION THAT IS BOUND TO BE LEVELED AGAINST THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN ALL-MALE LEADERSHIP.

>> Bonnie: DEBRA CARNAHAN, WOULD YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, SEXIST OR NOT SEXIST?

>> Debra: I AGREE WITH ELEANOR AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT THIS CONGRESS WOMAN WHO REALLY IS MORE OF A MODERATE THAN LIZ CHENEY AND VOTED MORE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT TRUMP'S HIM.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT THE GOP BEING TERRIFIED IN PRIMARIES IN 2022.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

IT ALSO GOES BACK TO DONALD TRUMP.

THE ONLY AGENDA THAT I CAN TELL THAT THE GOP HAS AT THIS POINT IS STILL DONALD TRUMP, DO WHAT DONALD TRUMP WANTS THEM TO DO.

>> Bonnie: WELL, THAT'S TRUE OF THE VAST MAJORITY, CORRECT.

BUT THERE ARE SOME STANDING UP AND SHE IS ONE OF THEM, SAYING THAT TRUMP LIED ABOUT THE ELECTION, HE DID NOT WIN THE ELECTION.

IS JUST TRYING TO STIR UP VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION IN THE NATION'S CAPITOL.

>> Debra: AND SHE IS RIGHT, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

IT IS ANTI-TRUMP.

IT'S TELLING THE TRUTH.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER CARED ABOUT THE TRUTH.

WHAT HE CARES ABOUT IS, ARE YOU LOYAL TO ME?

THAT IS IS ONE CONDITION FOR EVERYBODY IN HIS ORBIT OR ANYONE THAT HE SUPPORTS.

>> Bonnie: CARRIE, YOUR THOUGHTS -- STATED THAT HAS BECOME THE CONDITION OF GOP.

>> Bonnie: LET'S LET CARRIE IN HERE.

CARRIE, WOULD YOU THINK?

>> Carrie: SURE.

WILL THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOW THE PRESIDENT AND I THINK THE MEDIA IS TRYING TO VERY MUCH DISTRACT THE NATIONAL AGENDA AWAY FROM JOE BIDEN AND WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO.

HE'S TRYING TO FUNDAMENTALLY RESTRUCTURE OUR ECONOMY WITH A $6 TRILLION SPENDING PLAN.

THAT WOULD CRIPPLE OUR COUNTRY WITH DEBT.

MY GENERATION, FUTURE BURDENS.

THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND WE ARE NOT TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE THE MEDIA WANTS US TO FOCUS ON THIS INTERPARTY -- >> Bonnie: YOU THINK THE ME TOO -- MEDIA ARE CONSPIRING?

I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND CONSPIRING, AND CERTAINLY EVERYONE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU THAT SPINNING THIS LARGE NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED, IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED NOT ONLY BY BIDEN AND MEMBERS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION, AND WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE NEXT SEGMENT, BUT IT ALSO NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED BY THE VOTERS INTO REALLY SEE IF THERE ARE SOME CRITICAL OF WHAT THE VOTERS WANT.

LET'S GET BACK TO LIZ CHENEY FOR A MOMENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT SHE IS BEING SINGLED OUT FOR BEING A BIG MOUTH FEMALE?

>> Carrie: WELL, AT OUR ORGANIZATION, WERE NONPROFIT, WE DON'T TAKE POLITICAL POSITIONS.

BUT I DO THINK SHE'S IN A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP.

SO THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION IS, AS A LEADER, SHE REFLECTED WITH THE MEMBERSHIP ONCE?

AND SO, I AGREE WITH RINA THAT POSITION, AND THAT IF SHE SPEAKING IN A WAY THAT'S DISTRACTING FROM TRYING TO HOLD BIDEN ACCOUNTABLE, THEN THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, AND ALSO FOCUSING ON THE ELECTION FOR 2022 IN TERMS OF BEING VERY POLICY FOCUSED, AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO FOCUS ON, ISSUES LIKE SCHOOL CHOICE, ISSUES LIKE THE COVID RECOVERY, REOPENING SCHOOLS, CONSERVATIVES HAVE REALLY BEEN PUSHING AND PUSHING TO GET THE SCHOOLS OPEN AND DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN DRAGGING THEIR FEET ALL ALONG THE WAY.

IN NEW YORK WHERE I'VE LIVED FOR 10 YEARS, WILL CUOMO HAS BEEN DOING THEIR -- I MEAN, SO I WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLICY AND DEMOCRATS WANT TO TALK ABOUT INTERPARTY BICKERING.

AND I JUST -- THAT'S A PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT -- >> Debra: CAN I SAY'S SOMETHING IN RESPONSE TO THAT?

THE ONLY THING THE GOP HAS POINTED OUT WHERE SHE IS NOT IN LOCKSTEP WITH THE REST OF THE LEADERSHIP IS THE INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6 AGAINST THE CAPITOL AND THE ELECTION RESULTS OF LAST YEAR THAT HAD JOE BIDEN WINNING AS PRESIDENT AND CLAIMS OF DONALD TRUMP, THAT THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED AND STOLEN.

THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO THINGS WERE SHE DISAGREES WITH THEM.

NOW, IF THEY WANT TO POINT OUT OTHER THINGS, OTHER POLICY MATTERS THAT SHE'S NOT SICK WITH THE LEADERSHIP, I'D REALLY BE HAPPY TO HEAR THEM.

>> Carrie: A BIG WIN'S FOREIGN POLICY AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE POINTED THAT OUT, THAT THE DIRECTION WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN IS ACTUALLY I WOULD SAY MORE BIPARTISAN WITH WHAT JOE BIDEN IS DOING IN TERMS OF PULLING TROOPS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN -- >> Del.

Norton: SHE HAS MORE THAN 90 PERCENT VOTING RECORD WITH REPUBLICAN!

IT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THESE ISSUES THAT TEST THE REPUBLICANS TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS ANY CAPACITY OF THAT PARTY TO ABIDE ANYTHING BUT 100 PERCENT UNIFORMITY.

THAT IS WHAT THE TEST WILL BE.

LOOK, SHE SURVIVED IT ONCE.

EVERYONE -- >> Bonnie: SHE SURVIVED IT ONCE, BUT FIRST OF ALL, WE ALL CONSUME -- CAN ASSUME THAT ELISE STEFANIK WILL TAKE HER PLACE, THAT SHE IS INDEED GOING TO BE VOTED OUT OF HER LEADERSHIP POSITION, THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO HER?

I MEAN, DO WE ASSUME ABOUT ELISE STEFANIK, AND LIZ CHENEY HAS TO GO BACK TO YOUR AND A HALF FROM NOW TO WYOMING AND TRY TO GET REELECTED, WILL HAPPEN TO HER THEN?

>> Del.

Norton: THEY CERTAINLY IMPERIL HER ELECTION IF THEY DEPRIVE HER OF HER LEADERSHIP.

LET'S LOOK WHAT WE ARE HAVING HERE: STEFANIK IS FROM NEW YORK, A FAR MORE LIBERAL, IF I CAN USE THAT WORD, REPUBLICAN THAN WHOM SHE WOULD REPLACE.

SOME REPUBLICANS ARE AT WAR WITH THEMSELVES AND CANNOT FIGURE OUT WHERE THEY STAND AND WHAT KIND OF PARTY THEY ARE.

>> Rina: WELL, AT LEAST STEFANIK HAS DONE A TRANSFORMATION.

SHE WENT FROM BEING VERY LUKEWARM MODERATE ABOUT TRUMP TO FULL ON SHOWING HERSELF DURING THE FIRST IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AND THAT SHE WAS VERY, VERY -- I PARTICULARLY THOUGHT BECAUSE I SPENT TIME WITH HER, SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE WAS AUDITIONING FOR LEADERSHIP.

LOOK, SHE'S GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

AND THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH SORT OF THE OPTICS FOR THE FUTURE.

THEY LIKE ALWAYS NOT JUST NOW BECAUSE SHE'S A TRUMP FOOTSOLDIER, BUT SHE'S A MILLENNIAL.

SHE'S UNDER 40.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THAT DEM LEADERSHIP, IT'S ALL 70, 80+.

SO THIS REPLACEMENT IS SOMETHING I THINK REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP WILL EMBRACE AND LOVE AND LIZ CHENEY, SHE'S PUTTING COUNTRY OVER PARTY.

SHE EASILY COULD HAVE RUN FOR SENATE AND HOW TO CLOSE COZY SENATE SEAT.

AND SHE IS CHOSEN TO DO THIS NOW BECAUSE SHE FEELS SOMETHING SERIOUS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY, BUT THE FUTURE OF OUR REPUBLIC WITH WHAT DEMOCRACY IS IN THE UNITED STATES.

STEFANIK IS LOOKING AT THE BRIGHT LIGHTS, THE LAW OF BROADWAY IF YOU ASK ME, AND SORT OF THE DRAWBACK, THE POWER THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP SEEMS TO SEE THEIR BASE OF VOTERS LOVE ABOUT TRUMP, EVEN THOUGH -- >> Bonnie: WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE PERSON WHO REPUBLICAN S WHO ARE GOING TO BE PUT UP AGAINST HER, WHICH WILL BE PRO-TRUMP, AND HOW IS BACK ON A PLANE WYOMING?OU KNOW, USED TO BE SORT OF A LOW-INCOME STATE.

OF COURSE WITH JACKSON HOLE AND ALL THAT DEVELOPMENT IN BILLIONAIRES MOVING IN THERE, IT'S NO LONGER OVERWORKED -- YOU KNOW, BECAUSE HUGE MONEY IN JACKSON HOLE HAS SKEWED THE ECONOMIC PICTURE OF THE STATE.

BUT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

WILL THERE BE ENOUGH EDUCATED REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO -- MORE SWING CERTAINLY IN POLLS MORE LIKELY TO BE ANTI-TRUMP AND OTHER REPUBLICANS?

>> Rina: I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK LIZ CHENEY CARES IF SHE'S REELECTED.

SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE'S DOING.

I THINK SHE WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT, THAT SHE'S PUTTING HERSELF AT RISK AT NOT COMING BACK AND THAT'S FINE WITH HER BECAUSE THAT'S A RISK YOU TAKE WHEN YOU SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.

IN HER TRUTH TO POWER IS REALLY FAX.

>> Bonnie: FROM THE POLITICS OF THE PERSONAL TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER STRATEGY: VP KAMALA HARRIS LAID OUT THE ADMINISTRATION'S PLAN TO STOP THE SURGE OF MIGRATION FROM THE NORTHERN TRIANGLE OF CENTRAL AMERICA.

HARRIS'S HIGHEST PROFILE TASK IS TO TACKLE THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE.

AND SHE SAYS IN ORDER TO BRING CHANGE, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON BOTH THE ROOT CAUSES AND ACUTE PROBLEMS CAUSING THE SITUATION.

ROOT CAUSES SUCH AS CORRUPTION, POVERTY AND VIOLENCE, INCLUDING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND ACUTE PROBLEMS LIKE NATURAL DISASTERS AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

AN ADDITIONAL $310 MILLION WOULD BE ALLOCATED TO TACKLE THE PROBLEM.

HARRIS PLANS TO VISIT MEXICO AND THE REGION NEXT MONTH.

ALL RIGHT.

CARRIE, DO YOU THINK KAMALA HARRIS'S PLAN IS GOING TO WORK?

>> Carrie: WELL, WHEN SHE SAID THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A BIG PROBLEM AND A DRIVING FACTOR FOR WHAT WE SEE MORE IMMIGRANTS COMING UP FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, BUT THE REALITY IS IT'S BECAUSE OF WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID, AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER A TIME WHEN DEMOCRATS WERE SO UPSET ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH WERE FAR FEWER THAN WHAT JOE BIDEN HAS DONE, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SO FAR JUST WITHIN HIS FIRST, YOU KNOW, EFFORTS SIGNED AT LEAST 10 EXECUTIVE ACTIONS ON IMMIGRATION.

HE UNDID THE MEXICO, REMAIN IN MEXICO POLICY AND THAT'S WHAT BASICALLY THREW OPEN THE DOOR AND INVITED ALL THESE IMMIGRANTS TO COME.

WE HAVE SEEN RECORD NUMBERS OF CHILDREN COMING OVER UNACCOMPANIED THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN BEFORE EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

AND IT'S TAKEN HIM MONTHS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS A CRISIS AT THE BORDER, THE VICE PRESIDENT STILL REFUSES TO GO DOWN THERE.

AND I WAS JUST LOOKING AT A NEW POLL FROM HARVARD AND HARRIS ASK THAT SAYS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT HER TO GO DOWN THERE AND THEY WANT JOE BIDEN TO GO DOWN THERE.

AND YOU CAN RENAME SOMETHING HOWEVER YOU WANT.

THEY HAVE TRIED BUT FANCY NAMES ON THE HOLDING FACILITIES.

THEY ARE THE SAME HOLDING FACILITIES.

THEY ARE DOING THE SAME POLICIES, IN SOME RESPECTS.

THEY ARE PICKING AND CHOOSING WHAT THEY WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO INCENTIVIZING THESE IMMIGRANTS TO COME, THAT IS THE TRUE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

ELEANOR, I WAS LISTENING TO HER SPEECH AS SHE GAVE IT LIVE.

IN TWO THINGS STUCK OUT: THE FIRST ONE I WOULD ASK YOU ABOUT, WHEN SHE SAID WE ARE GOING TO STOP DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THESE THREE NORTHERN CENTRAL AMERICAN BORDER COUNTRIES, I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, YOU CAN'T EVEN FIX IT IN THE U.S. AND YOU'RE GOING TO FIX IT IN THE FOREIGN COUNTRIES?

>> Del.

Norton: I MUST SAY I HAVE NOT HEARD THAT ONE.

OMESTIC VIOLENCE, WE UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY TO BE A PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT MORE OF A PROBLEM IN THESE COUNTRIES.

BUT THAT'S NOT THE STEM REASON PEOPLE ARE FLEEING.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS A LOT TO DO WITH -- CORRUPTION HAS MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

IN THE NOTION THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN FIX PROBLEMS IN CENTRAL AMERICA SEEMS TO ME TO BE FAR-FETCHED.

THEY ARE PROPOSING A FUND THAT WOULD DISCOURAGE AMERICAN COMPANIES FROM CORRUPTION -- DEALING WITH CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS.

BUT FRANKLY, I THINK BOTH ADMINISTRATIONS, MY OWN DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HAVE BEEN GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES AND THAT'S WHAT THE VICE PRESIDENT IS DOING, WHICH IS TRYING TO DEAL ON THE GROUND WITH THOSE COMPANIES, IS THE BEST CASE NOW FOR TRYING TO TURN THIS AROUND.

>> Bonnie: BUT DON'T YOU -- DEBRA, LET ME GO TO YOU.O YOU THINK THIS IS A CLASSIC CASE OF BITING OFF WAY MORE THAN YOU CAN CHEW?

I MEAN, IF YOU CAN'T STOP DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, OR EVEN COME CLOSE, ACTUALLY TRAFFICKING, YOU KNOW, WHICH LEADS TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE OR IS A PRODUCT SOMETIMES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, TRAFFICKING IN THIS COUNTRY IS A WAY UP OVER WHERE IT WAS 10 YEARS AGO.

AND SHE'S TALKING ABOUT ENDING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SOMEWHERE ELSEO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE VOTER IS GOING TO LISTEN TO THAT AND SAY, WHY?

>> Debra: YEAH.

I AM 100 PERCENT IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU.

IT IS A BROAD STROKE.

AND WE DO NOT GET TOO BROAD.

WE NEED TO FOCUS IN AND TAKE REALISTIC STEPS.

NOW, WE CAN ENCOURAGE, WE CAN ENCOURAGE PROGRAMS.

WE CAN PARTNER WITH, YOU KNOW, PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE WE HAVE DONE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE ETHIOPIA, TO STOP DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THAT THE BIGGEST SURGE WE EVER SAW ON OUR BORDERS WAS IN 2019.

SO THIS IS NOT NEW.

IT WAS GOING ON IN 2019.

I THINK THE PLAN IS ACTUALLY BRILLIANT TO WORK ON THE DOMESTIC ISSUES, AND AS ELINOR POINTED OUT, THE CORRUPTION.

WE GO TO AFGHANISTAN AND WE TRY AND CHANGE THAT COUNTRY AND HELP PROTECT THE COUNTRY AND CHANGE THINGS THERE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT BORDER WALLS, WE CERTAINLY SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HELPING THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE RIGHT THERE IN OUR BACKYARD, IN THE AMERICAS.

AND I LIKE -- >> Bonnie: WELL, OKAY, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT NOT TOO LONG AFTER WE PULL OUT IN SEPTEMBER OF AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN ARE GOING TO TAKE BACK OVER AND IT WILL HAVE BEEN AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR BEING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME, MONEY AND LIVES.

AND SO, FOR YOU TO COMPARE THAT -- AND I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN CENTRAL AMERICA.

I HAVE BEEN TO FOUR OF THE SIX COUNTRIES, ONLY GUATEMALA ON THE -- AMONG THE THROUGH THAT SHE'S WORKING ON, GUATEMALA, EL SALVADOR AND HONDURAS, BUT IT BEEN TO COSTA RICA SEVERAL TIMES, I'VE BEEN TO PANAMA.

I MEAN, ON AND ON AND ON.

ANYONE WHO HAS SPENT ANY TIME THERE NEWS CORRUPTION IS SO DEEP.

AND EVERY FAMILY IS INVOLVED IN SOME WAY WITH THE GANGS BECAUSE THE GANGS DEMAND THAT THE GIRLS BECOME, YOU KNOW, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, WIVES TO THE GANG LEADERS, WHICH MEANS ESSENTIALLY SUBMIT TO RAPE AND PREGNANCY BY THEM.

AND THE BOYS, IF THEY DON'T JOIN THE GANGS AND START KILLING PEOPLE, THEY GET KILLED.

THAT IS WHAT'S DRIVING THIS WHOLE SURGE TO THE BORDER.

>> Debra: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.

THE REASON I USED AFGHANISTAN 'S ANALOGY WHEN I HEARD, WELL, WHY GO IN THERE?

WE CAN FIX EVERYTHING, WE CANNOT CHANGE IN THE WORLD.

WE GO IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD AND HALF.

AND THEY USE AFGHANISTAN AS ONE ILLUSTRATION.

NOT THAT IT WAS SUCCESSFUL, BUT THIS IS IN OUR BACKYARD.

THIS IS CAUSING PROBLEMS THAT BOTH SIDES CAN AGREE THERE IS A SURGE ON OUR BORDERS AND HAS BEEN AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT.

IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, HOW YOU ADDRESS IT AND I LIKE THIS APPROACH.

>> Carrie: NATIONBUILDING, REMEMBER THAT PHRASE WHEN GEORGE W. BUSH WAS PRESIDENT.

ALL THE DEMOCRATS WERE SAYING THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS IN A ROCK IRAQ NATIONBUILDING.

YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.

AND BONNIE, I AGREE WITH YOU.

YOU BREAK IT, YOU BUY IT.

DEMOCRATS ALSO RUN THE RISK OF ALIENATING THE AMERICAN VOTER HERE BECAUSE THIS IS A BIG REASON WHY TRUMP WON WITH HIS AMERICA FIRST AGENDA.

WE HAVE A BIG PROBLEM ON THE BORDER RIGHT NOW WITH COVID TESTING, AND POLITICAL REACHED OUT TO THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE AND THEY SAID, WHY AREN'T YOU MANDATING COVID TESTING FOR EVERY IMMIGRANT THAT YOU RELEASE INTO THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY SAID, YEAH, IT'S NOT MANDATORY.

WE ARE PARTNERING WITH THE LOCAL CITIES.

THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM AND SOMETHING WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN WORKING ON ON THE INDEPENDENT -- WITH THE PETITION CALLED SAFE -- >> Bonnie: SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT WE ARE REALLY OUT OF TIME ON THIS SEGMENT AND HAVE TO GET TO THE NEXT ONE, SORRY.

WE WILL BRING YOU IN ON THE NEXT ONE.

BUT IN HONOR OF MOTHER'S DAY, "TO THE CONTRARY"'S EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, CARI STEIN, SPOKE WITH THE DAUGHTER OF EARTHA KITT, WHOSE NAMES KITT SHAPIRO, ABOUT HER MOTHER IN A RELATIONSHIP.

SHE WAS A SINGER, ACTOR, DANCER, ACTIVIST AND, QUOTE, THE MOST EXCITING WOMAN ON EARTH.

BUT TO HER DAUGHTER, KITT SHAPIRO, SHE WAS JUST MOM.

SHAPIRO IS THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK EARTHA.

>> SHE WOULD OFTEN INTRODUCE US AND SAY I AM EARTHA AND THIS IS TRYING TO 16 AS IF I COMPLETED HER SOMEHOW.

>> Carrie: WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TO BE FIRST THE DAUGHTER OF THIS FAMOUS WOMAN AND ALWAYS WITH HER, BECAUSE YOU TRAVELED WITH HER?

>> Kitt: SHE WAS A MOTHER FIRST AND FOREMOST.

SO I DO THINK THAT WE HAD THAT UNIQUE CONNECTION, THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY AND WE WERE BLESSED TO HAVE HAD IT.

WE ALSO BOTH KNEW THAT DURING OUR LIVES TOGETHER, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING I CAME TO AFTER SHE LEFT FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS OF HER LIFE, WE WILL LIFT OUR LIVES LIKE THAT.

NOW, THAT BEING SAID, WE HAD A VERY TYPICAL MOTHER-DAUGHTER RELATIONSHIP.

THIS WAS NOT -- THEY WERE ROCKY TIMES IN OUR LIVES.

I ROLLED MY EYES LIKE A TYPICAL TEENAGER, DRIVING DOWN THE STREET SHE WOULD BE DOING FACIAL EXERCISES IN THE CAR AND I WOULD BE MORTIFIED.

SHE WOULD TELL ME TO DO SOMETHING AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD NOT WANT TO DO IT.

I MEAN, WE WERE MOTHER-DAUGHTER.

>> Carrie: HOW HARD OR WERE YOU REALLY NOT LED TO UNDERSTAND THIS, BUT WAS IT FOR HER TO BE -- TO HAVE SUCH AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING CAREER AND BE A SINGLE MOTHER?

AND, YOU KNOW, CREATE THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU?

>> Kitt: SHE DID NOT THINK OF IT AS DIFFICULT AS ALL.

SHE FELT THAT, YOU KNOW, I JUST WENT WITH HER.

THAT IS WHAT -- FROM THE DAY I WAS OLD ENOUGH TO TRAVEL AS AN INFANT, SHE LITERALLY TOUCHED HER SHE WOULD SAY WOULD PUT THE BABY ON ONE HIP AND THE DIAPER BACK ON THE OTHER AND OFF WE WOULD GO.

>> Carrie: WHICH YOU HAVE ADVICE FROM OTHERS OF TODAY?

>> Kitt: JUST SHOW YOUR CHILDREN AS MUCH LOVE AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

BECAUSE SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT WE ALL HAVE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, RIGHT, THAT WE ARE NOT ALL PRIVILEGE TO STAY HOME TO TAKE OUR CHILDREN WITH US.

MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO LEAVE THE HOUSE.

BUT WHEN YOUR KIDS UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE LOVED AND THEY ARE CARED FOR AND YOU ARE DOING, YOU KNOW, JUST DOING WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO, THAT I THINK WOULD BE HER BIGGEST PIECE OF ADVICE, SHARE YOUR KIDS HOW MUCH YOU LOVE THEM.

PHYSICALLY SHOW THEM HOW MUCH THEY ARE LOVED AND TELL THEM.

>> Bonnie: AND WE WILL BE AIRING THE FULL INTERVIEW WITH KITT SHAPIRO IN ANOTHER EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY", SO PLEASE STAY TUNED.

ALL RIGHT.

NOW FIRST TO YOU, DEBRA CARNAHAN, WHAT DO MOTHERS NEED TO LEARN NOW ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, FOR MOTHER'S DAY?

>> Debra: WELL, I THINK SOUTH CAROLINA IS A VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT THAT MOTHERS NEED TO BE AWARE OF NOW, ESPECIALLY STILL IN THE AGE OF COVID AND WHAT WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE LAST 15 MONTHS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND THEY NEED TO PUT OUT THERE WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE.

DON'T EXPECT YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER OR YOUR CHILDREN TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOU.

AND PART OF THAT SELF-CARE IS BREATHING SPACE AND TIME AWAY FOR YOURSELF.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS, RINA, AS THE MOTHER OF TWO SMALL GIRLS.

>> Rina: ,OH, YEAH.

UNDER THE AGE OF FIVE, I MIGHT ADD.

WELL, THIS IS A MOTHER'S DAY UNLIKE ANY OTHER ONE.

BUT EVERY MOTHER'S DAY AM REMINDED OF THE WORDS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, OUR FORMER PRESIDENT, ABOUT HIS MOTHER, NANCY HAKES LINCOLN, AND HOW HE SAYS THAT ALL I AM, ALTHOUGH I HOPE TO BE USED TO, ANGEL MOTHER, LOOSELY.

IN A REALLY FEEL THAT THAT IS MY CASE.

I THINK ABOUT MY MOTHER ALL THE TIME AND IN PARTICULAR HOW SHE STEPPED UP IN THE PAST YEAR, THOUGH SHE'S TURNING 65 THIS YEAR.

SHE ACTS LIKE SHE'S 25, THE WAY SHE DRIVES HOURS TO COME HELP ME AND MY DAUGHTERS AND MY HUSBAND AS WELL BE A REAL PILLOW FOR US.

AND THAT'S BEEN IMPORTANT BECAUSE MY MENTAL HEALTH HAS REALLY SUFFERED IN THIS PAST YEAR.

IN HER TO GIVE ME THOSE MENTAL HEALTH TIMEOUTS FOR HER TO GIVE ME TIME TO GO SEE MY GIRLFRIENDS RECENTLY AND HAVE COCKTAILS WITH THEM, WE ARE ALL VACCINATED NOW, SO SHE SAYS I'LL TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS, YOU TO GO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

AND THAT IS WHAT MOTHERHOOD IS ABOUT, ABOUT SUPPORTING WHEN ANOTHER, REALIZING THAT WHAT WE NEED AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THIS MOTHER'S DAY.

WE NEED TO REOPEN THE SCHOOLS.

GIVE US THAT GIFT TOO!

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR THOUGHTS.

YOU HAVE TWO GROWN CHILDREN.

>> Del.

Norton: THIS MOTHER'S DAY, I'M CELEBRATING THAT TWO MOTHERS ARE LEADING OUR COUNTRY, OUR VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS AND NANCY PELOSI, THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THAT MEANS MOTHERS ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE IN OUR COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie: YES, FINALLY.

WOO HOO.

CARRIE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Carrie: I AGREE WITH DEBRA.

MOTHERS NEED HEALTHY BOUNDARIES TO BE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR IDENTITY AS A MOTHER BUT ALSO AS A WOMAN AND IN WHATEVER -- HOWEVER SHE DEFINES UP FOR HERSELF AND I LOVE THE POEM, THE HAND THAT ROCKS THE CRADLE IS THE HAND THAT RULES THE WORLD, THE POEM THAT CAME OUT IN 1865.

AND I THINK THAT'S NEVER MORE TRUE TODAY.

AND MOTHERS TRULY ARE SUPERHEROES AND I SALUTE ALL OF THEM.

MY MOTHER GAVE BIRTH TO 10 BABIES AM FAR BEHIND WITH ZERO, BUT I AM AN ASPIRING MOTHER.

BUT, YEAH, I SALUTE ALL THE MOTHERS HERE ON THIS PANEL TOO.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW US ON OUR PREVIOUS WEBSITE, www.TOTHECONTRARY.org.

PLEASE ALSO FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND FACEBOOK.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.