>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", BILL COSBY'S RELEASE FROM PRISON FOR HIS CONVICTION ON SEXUAL ASSAULT CHARGES AND THE FUTURE OF THE #METOO MOVEMENT.

THEN, AND HISTORIC FIRST AS A TRANSGENDER WOMAN IS SET TO COMPETE IN THE TOKYO OLYMPICS THE SUMMER.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

AFTER THREE YEARS IN PRISON, 83-YEAR-OLD BILL COSBY IS FREE.

HE WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON AFTER HIS SEXUAL ASSAULT CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED BY THE PENNSYLVANIA SUPREME COURT.

THE RULING WAS BASED ON A TECHNICALITY AND DECRIED AS BLATANTLY UNFAIR BY WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATES.

COSBY HAD ADMITTED IN STATEMENTS, GIVEN MUCH EARLIER TO OUR PROSECUTOR, SAYING HE DRUGGED AND SEXUALLY ASSAULTED WOMEN.

BUT THOSE STATEMENTS WERE MADE UNDER A GRANT OF IMMUNITY.

LATER, PROSECUTORS USED THOSE STATEMENTS TO CONVICT HIM IN HIS LATEST CASE.

MORE THAN 50 WOMEN HAVE PUBLICLY ACCUSED COSBY OF RAPE OR ASSAULT.

HE WAS THE FIRST CELEBRITY CONVICTED IN THE #METOO ERA, AND THIS CASE WAS ONE OF THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT CONVICTIONS.

WITH US TODAY ARE DONNA EDWARDS, FORMER MARILYN BUGAS REPRESENTATIVE; PATRICE ONWUKA, SENIOR POLICY ANALYST AT INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S VOICES; LARA BROWN, PROFESSOR AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY'S GRADUATE SCHOOL OF POLITICAL MANAGEMENT; AND TIANA LOWE, COMMENTARY WRITER FOR THE WASHINGTON TIMES.

FIRST TO YOU, DONNA: HOW BIG OF AN UPSET IS THIS FOR THE #METOO MOVEMENT, GIVEN THAT DESPITE HIS CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED, A LOT OF AMERICANS WATCHED THAT TRIAL AND SAW A GUILTY MAN?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, HIS CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED ON A TECHNICALITY AND I THINK IT'S REALLY.

TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT OVERTURNS THE EVIDENCE THAT BILL COSBY ENGAGED IN THE MOST EGREGIOUS BEHAVIOR: ASSAULT, DRUGGING WOMEN.

AND THAT DOES NOT GO AWAY.

AND SO, THIS OVERTURNING OF THE CONVICTION DOES NOT CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE CRIMES THAT BILL COSBY WAS ACCUSED OF.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DOES ANYBODY THINK IT'S A SETBACK FOR THE #METOO MOVEMENT?>> Patrice Onwuka: I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A SETBACK, BUT REALLY A SIGNAL.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT TELLS -- THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING PARTS OF WHAT MADE THIS KIND OF A TECHNICALITY THAT HE GOT OFF ON, AND I THINK IN THE OPINION, THE COURT RECOGNIZED THAT BRINGING IN WITNESSES WHO COULD NOT SPEAK TO THE SPECIFIC CASE, BUT TO THEIR PAST EXPERIENCES, THINGS -- WITNESSES WHO NEVER BROUGHT, YOU KNOW, CHARGES OR INVESTIGATIONS AGAINST THE ALLEGED, THE ACCUSED IN THE PAST, AND, YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE, JUST A KIND OF PROOF THAT HE'S GOT A BAD CHARACTER AND MAYBE THIS IS A PATTERN OF EVIDENCE, THAT MAY NOT FLY IN FUTURE CASES.

YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THAT WE TALK ABOUT TECHNICALITIES, THE PROCESS REALLY MATTERS WHEN IT COMES TO THE LAW.

AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SOMEONE IS BEING ACCUSED OF, YOU KNOW, A PRETTY SERIOUS HEINOUS CRIME, YOU'VE GOT THE PROSECUTION.

THEY'VE GOTTA MAKE SURE THEIR DUCKS ARE IN A ROW, BECAUSE THERE ARE RIGHTS AND THE ACCUSED HAS RIGHTS.

AND I THINK WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE THE ALLEGATIONS, WHAT WAS DONE TO BILL COSBY FROM IT, THE PROSECUTOR'S STANDPOINT WAS NOT RIGHT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, YOU ARE TALKING TO AT LEAST ONE LAWYER HERE, AND I AGREE WITH YOU.

IT'S ALL IN THE DETAILS WITH THE LAW.

BELIEVE ME, I CORRECTED SOMA AND A LAW REVIEW FOOTNOTES THAT IN THE REAL WORLD NOBODY WOULD CARE ABOUT, BUT THEY SPEND YOUR TIME AS A LAWSUIT LEARNING TO DO THAT.

BUT THIS TECHNICALITY, IT WAS TIME-LIMITED.

THE AGREEMENT NOT TO PROSECUTE WAS TIME-LIMITED.

AND IF THEY HAD JUST WAITED A FEW MORE DAYS TO PUT FORTH THESE CHARGES, THEY WOULD HAVE -- THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN VIOLATING THE AGREEMENT.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> Tiana Lowe: I MEAN, ISN'T THE FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT TO NOT SELF INCRIMINATE?

THAT DOESN'T HAVE AN EXPIRATION DATE.

I MEAN, THE FACT IS IN GOOD FAITH, PROSECUTORS, EVEN IF THEY DON'T BROKER A DEAL WITH THE SUSPECT, BUT IF THEY ARE JUST INFORMING THEM OF SOMETHING THAT THEY WILL NOT DO UNCONDITIONALLY, THEY ARE EXPECTED TO BE HELD TO THAT.

THE ISSUE THAT I SEE HERE IS EVERYONE IS OUTRAGE IS DIRECTED AT THE PENNSYLVANIA STATE SUPREME COURT WHEN IT REALLY SHOULD BE AT FIRST CASTOR, THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY BASICALLY BOUGHT INTO EVERY NEGATIVE NARRATIVE ABOUT WOMEN WHO ACCUSED A MAN OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND THAT'S WHY HE PUSHED THE NONPROSECUTION AGREEMENT, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT HER CLAIM, WHICH WAS VERY CREDIBLE, VERY MUCH BACKED BY EVIDENCE, WOULD NOT STAND IN A CRIMINAL COURT BECAUSE THE JURY CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT SHE WAS A LEGITIMATE VICTIM.

THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM HERE.

DEA'S WHO DO NOT THINK THAT WOMEN'S CLAIMS, EVEN WITH EVIDENCE, WILL BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

>> Lara Brown: ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS WITH THE BILL COSBY CASE IS JUST THAT SO MANY WOMEN HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO COME FORWARD.

AND THAT IS A PROBLEM OF OUR CULTURE.

I MEAN, THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS WERE EXPIRED ON SO MANY OF THESE INSTANCES.

AND WHAT THAT MEANT WAS THAT PROSECUTORS ALSO NEVER HAD SORT OF THE FULL ARSENAL AVAILABLE TO THEM TO BRING INTO THE COURTROOM.

AND SO, WHILE I AGREE THAT CASTOR SHOULD HAVE DONE MORE IN THE ORIGINAL CASE AND NOT ENTERED INTO SOME KIND OF PLEA AGREEMENT WHERE BILL COSBY WAS ABLE TO TESTIFY IN THE DEPOSITION AND THEN BE WAIVED FROM ANY PROSECUTORIAL, YOU KNOW, EFFORT, IT'S ALSO PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE GOT DOZENS OF WOMEN WHO WERE HURT AND WERE NOT ABLE TO SEEK JUSTICE, PARTLY BECAUSE OUR CULTURE DID NOT ALLOW THAT.

AND THIS WAS MY -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WEIGHT.

LARA, LARA.

CERTAINLY OUR CULTURE OR OUR LAWS, WHICH ARE -- >> Lara Brown: BOTH.

LOOK, BONNIE, OUR LAWS REFLECT OUR CULTURE.

AND WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT FOR MOST OF AMERICAN HISTORY, WOMEN HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN AS CREDIBLE.

AND THE ONE THING THAT I THINK IS TRUE, AND THIS IS WHERE I WOULD SAY THIS IS NOT SORT OF THE BACKTRACKING ON THE #METOO MOVEMENT AT ALL.

IF ANYTHING, IT TELLS US THAT THE #METOO MOVEMENT HAS CHANGED THE WAY WOMEN ARE SEEN.

AND WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT GOING FORWARD, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE WOMEN WHO ARE MORE COMFORTABLE ASSERTING THE WRONGS AND TRANSMISSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE AGAINST THEM IN PUBLIC AND IN COURTS OF LAW.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, THIS IS NOT, WHAT DO YOU SAY -- I WOULD NOT PUT THIS, EVEN TRY TO PUT THIS IN EVIDENCE IN A COURT OF LAW, BUT IT'S JUST SOMETHING I HEARD FROM A FRIEND OF MY FAMILY WHO IS A VERY BIG TALENT AGENT IN HOLLYWOOD.

AND I ASKED HIM, GOSH, SIX MONTHS OR MORE AGO, WHAT'S WITH THE #METOO MOVEMENT?

A CHANGE THINGS, HE SAID IT'S DEAD AND NOT AT ALL.

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO -- BONNIE, COME ON.

I MEAN, THE #METOO MOVEMENT WAS MORE THAN JUST ABOUT HOLLYWOOD.

THE #METOO MOVEMENT WAS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL WOMEN BEING ABLE TO COME FORWARD AND TO SPEAK THE TRUTH OF THEIR EXPERIENCES.

AND I THINK, IF ANYTHING, THE RESULT OF THE COSBY CASE, I AGREE, I BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT WAS GOING OFF OF WHAT THE WALL IS NOW VISIBLY IN AGREEMENT THAT WAS NEVER WRITTEN DOWN BETWEEN THE PROSECUTOR AND BILL COSBY.

BUT IN FACT, I THINK WOMEN SHOULD STILL FEEL THAT THEY CAN COME FORWARD, THAT THERE ARE PROSECUTORS OUT THERE WHO WILL LISTEN TO THEM.

AND I THINK IF ANYTHING, THE MOVEMENT BOLSTERED THE ABILITY FOR WOMEN TO COME FORWARD AND TO SPEAK THE TRUTH OF THEIR EXPERIENCES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHY AREN'T WE SEE -- THERE ARE CASES OUT THERE.

I WISH HILARY ROSEN, OUR REGULAR PANELIST, BECAUSE SHE IS VERY INVOLVED -- SHE IS ON THE BOARD OF THE GROUP THAT BRINGS THESE LAWSUITS AND PAYS FOR THEM FOR POOR WOMEN, THAT TO HEAR -- TO TELL US ABOUT MORE LAWSUITS COMING FORWARD, BECAUSE THEY ARE.

BUT MY QUESTION IS, IF THE PUBLICITY DIES DOWN, DOESN'T THAT GIVE ABUSERS A SIGNAL, LIKE OKAY, WE ARE GONE, YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO NOW?

>> Patrice Onwuka: WELL, BONNIE, I WOULD OPEN UP.

I MEAN, I AGREE WITH DONNA THAT WOMEN WERE EMPOWERED TO SHARE THEIR VOICE, TO SHARE THE STORY.

I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THE #METOO MOVEMENT BECAME POLITICAL AT SOME POINTS AND BECAME MORE OF A TOOL FOR, YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN PARTY OF POLITICS AND POLICIES RATHER THAN BEING FULLY INCLUSIVE OF THOSE WHO ARE ON THE RIGHT, FOR EXAMPLE.

NOW, DOES THAT MEAN THAT MEN CAN THINK THAT THEY -- AND WOMEN WHO DO SOMETIMES, IF YOU DO SOMETIMES HARASS AND WORSE, TODAY -- I THINK THEY ARE GETTING AWAY?

NO, I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DARK CAN COME TO LIGHT VERY QUICKLY.

AND CANCEL CULTURE CAN BE USED TO CANCEL YOUR CAREER.

SO THERE IS STILL SOME FEAR OF THAT.

UNFORTUNATELY THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TOKEN IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PROFESSIONAL WORLD HOW THE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN HAVE CHANGED BECAUSE OF ALL OF THIS, WOMEN, A LOT OF MEN IN POWER DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE BEING AROUND YOUNG WOMEN, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THAT HAS -- AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE THE SHOW.

THAT HAS SOME IMPACTS ON WOMEN'S CAREERS AS WELL.O ME TOO, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY IT'S BAD.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF POSITIVITY, BUT THERE ALSO HAVE BEEN SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THAT WE CONSERVATIVES ALWAYS TALK ABOUT.

>> I WILL JUST SAY THIS: I THINK IT'S CLEAR THAT WE NEED RESOURCES THAT ARE ABLE TO HELP AND SUPPORT WOMEN AND SO THAT THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO COME FORWARD AND HAVE THE ADVOCACY THEY NEED.

I MEAN, THAT HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, A REAL CHALLENGE IS WOMEN HAVE HAD NO SUPPORT SYSTEMS OUT THERE AND YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE ALONE IF YOU COME FORWARD TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU AND TO PURSUE THE LEGAL AVENUES THAT ARE DUE TO YOU.

AND SO, IF ANYTHING, IT SHOULD CAUSE US TO REDOUBLE THE KIND OF RESOURCES WE HAVE OUT THERE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: FROM OVERTURNED CONVICTIONS TO TRANS TRANSGENDERED WOMEN IN SPORTS: U.S. SUPREME COURT DECLINED TO HEAR AN APPEAL CHALLENGING THE RIGHTS OF TRANSGENDER STUDENTS TO USE THE GENDER BATHROOM OF THEIR CHOOSING.

THE HIGH COURT WILL NOT HEAR THE CASE INVOLVING GAVIN GRIMM, A TRANSGENDER BOY AND A VIRGINIA SCHOOL BOARD THAT DID NOT WANT HIM TO USE THE BOYS' BATHROOM.

ALSO, AFTER WINNING THE STATE PAGEANT, MS. NEVADA WILL BECOME THE FIRST TRANSGENDER WOMAN IN THE YOU MISS USA PAGEANT IN NOVEMBER.

AND THE SUMMER, THE FIRST TRANSGENDER ATHLETES EXPECTED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OLYMPICS.

IF ALL GOES AS PLANNED, NEW ZEALAND'S LAUREL HUBBARD WILL COMPETE IN WOMEN'S WEIGHTLIFTING, BUT IT'S NOT WITHOUT CONTROVERSY.

THE ISSUE IS WHETHER HUBBARD HAS AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE OTHER WOMEN WEIGHTLIFTERS BECAUSE SHE WAS BORN A BIOLOGICAL MALE.

JOANNA HARPER, A MEDICAL PHYSICIST, ATHLETE, AND TRANS WOMEN, SAYS NOT NECESSARILY ACCORDING TO HER RESEARCH, BECAUSE TRANS WOMEN WHO UNDERGO HORMONE THERAPY LOSE THAT MAIL ADVANTAGE.

SHE FIRST NOTICED IT DURING HER OWN TRANSITION.

>> Joanna Harper: I KNOW THAT ONCE MY TESTOSTERONE LEVELS WERE RUNNING DOWN, I WAS GOING TO RUN SLOWER, BUT I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, I'D LOSE A LITTLE BIT OF SPEED AND IT WILL BE A GRADUAL CHANGE.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

WITHIN WEEKS, I WAS RUNNING NOTICEABLY SLOWER.

AFTER NINE MONTHS, I WAS RUNNING 12 PERCENT SLOWER.

>> Bonnie Erbe: INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE USED STUDIES INCLUDING HARPER'S 2015 GROUNDBREAKING RESEARCH TO RESHAPE REGULATIONS ON TRANSGENDER ATHLETES.

IT DROPPED THE ORIGINAL REQUIREMENT FOR SURGERY, MANDATED IN 2004 WHEN THE OLYMPICS FIRST MADE IT OKAY FOR TRANSGENDER ATHLETES TO COMPETE.

>> Joanna Harper: A TRANS WOMAN HAS TO LOWER HER TESTOSTERONE BELOW A SPECIFIC LEVEL.

IT'S 10 NANOMOLES PER LITER, IS THE LIMIT, AND KEEP IT THERE FOR A CONTINUOUS PERIOD OF 12 MONTHS BEFORE COMPETING IN THE WOMEN'S CATEGORY.

AND THEN ONCE SHE STARTS INTO THE WOMEN'S CATEGORY, MUST MAINTAIN LOW TESTOSTERONE CONTINUOUSLY WHILE SHE CONTINUES TO COMPETE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SOME SCIENTISTS AND ACTIVISTS CRITICIZED THE GUIDELINES.

DONNA LOPIANO IS A FORMER SOFTBALL PLAYER AND MEMBER OF THE WOMEN'S SPORTS POLICY WORKING GROUP.

HER ORGANIZATION IS WORKING UNDER COMPROMISE PROPOSAL TO MAKE IT FAIR FOR BOTH TRANSGENDER AND BIOLOGICAL WOMEN TO COMPETE IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

THEY OFFER A VARIETY OF OPTIONS AND BELIEVE IT DEPENDS ON THE SPORTING EVENT AND THE WOMAN'S TRANSITION STATUS.

>> Donna Lopiano: NO MATTER WHAT HORMONES YOU TAKE, YOU CAN'T GET RID OF THE MUSCLE MASS THAT YOU DEVELOPED WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH PUBERTY, AND IT IS STILL AN ADVANTAGE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THE PROPOSAL WOULD ALLOW TRANSGENDER WOMEN TO COMPETE IN WOMEN'S SPORTS EVENTS, BUT IN SPORTS REQUIRING GREATER MUSCLE MASS, THEY SUGGEST DIFFERENT CATEGORIES AND AWARDS.

CLASSIFICATION WILL ALSO DEPEND ON WHETHER THE ATHLETE STARTED HORMONE THERAPY BEFORE OR AFTER PUBERTY OR NEVER UNDERWENT THERAPY.

>> Donna Lopiano: WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO SCIENCE, THE LATEST RESEARCH ON MILITARY TELL US THAT WE PROBABLY HAVE TO HAVE TRANSGENDER GIRLS, FOR INSTANCE, STAY ON HORMONES FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME THAN WAS ORIGINALLY -- THAT MILITARY RESEARCH IS SAYING IS PROBABLY MORE LIKE TWO YEARS.

SO THERE IS STILL THIS FLUX.

AND THE POINT IS, CAN WE DO THE BEST JOB WE CAN TO PROTECT BIOLOGICAL FEMALES AND TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE WELCOME IN WOMEN'S SPORTS?

>> Bonnie Erbe: HUBBARD HAS PERFORMED BETTER A FEMALE WEIGHTLIFTER THAN A MALE, COMING IN SIXTH PLACE IN THE 2019 WORLD WEIGHTLIFTING CHAMPIONSHIPS.

AND HARPER SAYS THIS IS NOT THE MOST TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF TRANS WOMEN IN SPORTS.

>> Joanna Harper: THERE ARE MANY, IN FACT, MOST SPORTS WHERE YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO NOTICE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PERFORMANCE LEVELS OF TRANS WOMEN IN MEN'S SPORTS AND WOMEN'S SPORTS.

BUT WEIGHTLIFTING IS ONE WAY OR, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, ADVANTAGE.

BUT WE ALLOW ADVANTAGES IN SPORT.

BUT EVEN WITH HER ADVANTAGE, SHE WAS SIXTH IN THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

HOW ABOUT WE WAIT AND SEE HOW SHE DOES IN THE OLYMPICS BEFORE EVERYBODY GETS SUPER EXCITED ABOUT IT?

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

TO YOU, LARA, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT THE REASON SOME PEOPLE ARE BOTHERED BY LAUREL HUBBARD COMPETING IN THE OLYMPICS IS BECAUSE SHE IS COMPETING IN A TRADITIONALLY MALE SPORT AND ONE VERY STRONG MUSCLE MASS IS REQUIRED.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF SHE WERE COMPETING IN ANOTHER SPORT?

>> Lara Brown: WELL, I THINK THE SCIENCE IS ACTUALLY STILL OUT ON A SORT OF WHICH SPORTS MAY HAVE ISSUES FOR TRANSGENDER WOMEN IN COMPETING IN TRADITIONAL WOMEN'S SPORTS.

THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER IT IS SPEED OR WHETHER IT IS THE HAVING GONE THROUGH PUBERTY AS A MALE.

AS TO HOW THE BIOLOGY OF THE INDIVIDUAL IS AFFECTED AND WHETHER OR NOT IT CREATES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE CIS GENDER OR THE SITES WOMEN IN COMPETING ALONGSIDE THESE TRANS WOMEN, AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS UNDERSTAND THAT ALL SPORTS INVOLVES BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES TO BEGIN WITH.

YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY ATHLETES JUST HAPPENED TO ALSO HAVE BIOLOGICAL ADVANTAGES.

WE KNOW THAT MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYERS, FOR INSTANCE, HAVE BETTER THAN 2020 HINDSIGHT ON AVERAGE.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT ALLOWS THEM TO HIT THOSE HOME RUNS SO FREQUENTLY.

AND THIS IS WHERE I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE A MUCH MORE ROBUST CONVERSATION ABOUT BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES IN SPORTS, WHAT WE UNDERSTAND TO BE GOOD ATHLETICS, AND IMPRESSIVE ABILITIES VERSUS WHAT WE REALLY SEE AS A GENDER DIFFERENCE OR A SEX-BASED DIFFERENCE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I TAKE YOUR POINT THAT SCIENCE ISN'T EVEN THERE YET VERY WELL.

I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THAT.

BUT THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY, AND WE KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVE COVERED THIS STORY IN THE PAST, ALWAYS SAYS, WELL, ONCE YOU GO ON HORMONES, YOU LOSE YOUR MUSCLE MASS, YOU LOSE ALL OF THE ADVANTAGES THAT YOU HAVE.

TIANA, DO YOU THINK THIS IS TRUE?

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> Tiana Lowe: SO PER LARA'S POINT, THE GATE IS THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON A LOT OF THESE ISSUES.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE QUESTIONS AGAIN OF DID, DID THE TRANSGENDER FEMALE QUESTION GO THROUGH BIOLOGICAL MALE PUBERTY, BONE DENSITY, ALL OF THESE THINGS?

YES, WE DO KNOW THAT ATHLETES OFTEN POSSESS BIOLOGICAL DISTINCTIONS, LIKE, FOR INSTANCE, BUDDY PHELPS' BODY PROPORTIONS ARE CLOSER TO THAT OF A FISH THAN THE AVERAGE AMERICAN MALE, SO OBVIOUSLY HE WILL HAVE PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE WHEN IT COMES TO SWIMMING.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO ANY EXTERNAL INFLUENCES THAT GIVES YOU A LEG UP, THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE ATHLETES WHO UNKNOWINGLY ARE EXPOSED TO A SUBSTANCE THAT SHOWS UP ON A DRUG TEST THAT THE IOC OR WHATEVER GOVERNING BODY FOR THAT SPORT SAYS ANY TRACE OF IT AND YOU'RE DONE.

WE HAVE ATHLETES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN HELD TO THE MOST STRICT SCRUTINY WHEN IT COMES TO ANY EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT COULD BE SEEN AS TREATING OR GIVING THEM AN ARTIFICIAL LEG UP.

WHEN IT COMES TO SPORTS, IT SEEMS LIKE THE SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS IS NOT THERE AND IT SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE LAST PRETTY MUCH THE LAST REALM OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION WHERE WE HAVE A CLEAR-CUT MALE LANE AND A FEMALE LANE.

WE DO NOT HAVE THE MALE POLITICAL CONTEST AND THE FEMALE POLITICAL CONTEST, WE DO NOT HAVE THE MALE CEO CONTEST, THE FEMALE CEO CONTEST.

BUT WITH SPORTS, WE DO.

AND THINK ABOUT THIS AS AN TERMS RELATES TO TITLE IX IN WOMEN'S SPORTS: IS IT FAIR FOR BIOLOGICAL WOMEN TO HAVE CERTAIN SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES, TAKE IT AWAY FROM THEM BY PEOPLE THAT IF THEY WERE NOT IDENTIFYING AS TRANS, IF THEY WERE JUST TAKING SUBSTANCES FOR OTHER REASONS, IT WOULD NOT BE VIEWED AS CHEATING?

AND THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH GETTING DIGNITY AND RESPECTING THE PRONOUNS AND THE IDENTITY OF TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUALSF COURSE I'M IN SUPPORT OF THAT.

THIS IS ABOUT THE FAIRNESS OF SOMETHING THAT'S VERY -- >> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.ONNA, DONNA, DO YOU AGREE?

DO YOU THINK, DO YOU SUPPORT THE TRADITIONAL PROGRESSIVE VIEW THAT TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE WOMEN AND THAT'S IT?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, LET ME JUST SAY, FIRST OF ALL, I DO NOT THINK THAT THE SCIENCE IS OUT THERE YET.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK WE CAN GO AROUND MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT WHO GETS TO COMPETE WHERE WITHOUT HAVING SOME OF THAT SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND.

AND SO, WITH THAT IN MIND, I ALSO THINK THAT WE CONTINUE TO, LIKE, OVERESTIMATE AND ANALYZE WHAT THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM IS.

IT IS ESTIMATED THAT ONLY ABOUT 50 OF 10,000 OLYMPIC ATHLETES FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY AND NOT ALL OF THEM WE EVEN KNOW BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT OUT IN ONE SPORT OR THE OTHER.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A SUPER ATHLETE IN ONE SPORT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THAT SAME ATHLETIC TALENT TRANSLATES INTO BEING A SUPER ATHLETE IN ANOTHER SPORT.

AND SO, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE THAT WE HAVE TO LEARN ABOUT THIS.

AND I THINK WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, THE HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE LEVEL, I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPETE AS WHO THEY ARE.

AND I KNOW THAT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS ISSUE BEFORE, AND I GUESS I JUST DON'T THINK THAT IT RISES TO SUCH A LEVEL THAT WE ARE ENDANGERING WOMEN SPORTS OR WE ARE ENDANGERING MEN'S SPORTS BY HAVING PEOPLE COMPETE AS WHO THEY ARE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOUR THOUGHTS, PATRICE.

>> Patrice Onwuka: WELL, I THINK IT WOULD BE NICE.

I THINK WE ALL AGREE THAT THE SCIENCE IS NOT CONCLUSIVE.

BUT SCHOOLS ARE NOT WAITING ON THE SCIENCE.

YOU KNOW, SPORTS IS NOT WAITING ON THE SCIENCE.

AND SO, AS WE ARE SEEING THESE ATHLETES AT THE COLLEGIATE LEVEL, THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL START TO COMPETE, THIS ISSUE IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY.

WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T I THINK UNDERESTIMATED HERE.

AT OUR SISTER ORGANIZATION, IWS, WE ARE SOLICITING STORIES FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY, TENS TO HUNDREDS OF STORIES OF YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE COMPETING WITH BIOLOGICALLY MALE ATHLETES IN COMPETITIONS AND LOSING IN COMPETITIONS WHICH THEY WOULD HAVE POTENTIALLY HAVE WON.

THE REAL-WORLD CONSEQUENCES ARE THESE YOUNG WOMEN ARE LOSING OUT ON SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES, AS TIANA MENTIONED.

THEY ARE LOSING OUT ON OPPORTUNITIES JUST TO COMPETE FAIRLY.

AND I THINK WHEN WE TALK TO THE PUBLIC, I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT OF FAIRNESS.

IT'S NOT SO MUCH A MATTER OF DENYING SOMEONE THE RIGHT TO LIVE THEIR LIFE AS THEY CHOOSE, IT'S A MATTER OF DENYING SOMEONE THE RIGHT TO COMPETE FAIRLY IN A SPORT THAT'S CARVED OUT FOR THEM.

AND I DO ACTUALLY AGREE ALSO WITH TIANA THAT, YEAH, WOMEN SPORTS ARE ONE OF THE FEW LANES THAT ARE STILL AVAILABLE TO WOMEN AND I DO THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT ERASING THOSE LANES.

THE FUNNY THING IS WE NEVER SEE VERY MUCH ABOUT WOMEN COMPETING IN MEN'S SPORTS.

WHY IS THAT?

FOR MOST WOMEN TO COMPETE IN MEN'S SPORTS, THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TO TAKE SOME SORT OF ENHANCEMENT TO BE ABLE TO CATCH UP, OTHERWISE WHY DO SO.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YEAH.

TALK ABOUT -- AND MEAN, I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION, BUT ARE THERE TRANS MEN COMPETING IN MEN'S SPORTS?

>> Lara Brown: BONNIE, MAYBE I COULD JUST ANSWER THIS.

THERE WAS A RECENT STUDY WAS JUST PUBLISHED IN ONE OF THE BRITISH JOURNALS OF MEDICINE THAT ACTUALLY DID FIND THAT WHEN TRANS MEN TAKE THE MASK UTILIZING HORMONE, SO MOSTLY TESTOSTERONE, IN FACT, OVER A YEAR TIME, THEY ARE IN FACT ABLE TO COMPETE AT THE SAME LEVEL AS CIS MEN WHEN IT COMES TO SIT-UPS AND PUSH-UPS AND SPEED IN TERMS OF RUNNING.

SO WHAT WAS INTERESTING -- >> Bonnie Erbe: YEAH, BUT WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE, WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE -- I MEAN, MOST OF THEM ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE BECAUSE THEY WERE BORN BIOLOGICAL WOMEN, IS BEING SIX FEET TALL AS A LOT OF GUYS ARE WAY UP, OR 60 AND OVER.

AND A LOT OF WOMEN.

IT'S PRETTY RARE.

>> Lara Brown: BUT WE MAY SEE MORE TRANS MEN TRY TO MOVE INTO MEN'S SPORTS.

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN A FEW WOMEN TAKE THE FIELD IN FOOTBALL, AND I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF WE ACTUALLY SEE MORE INCLUSIVITY IN BOTH SPORTS.

AND MAYBE THIS WOULD BE A LOSS OF THE LANES AND MAYBE THIS WOULD BE IN SOME WAYS A LOSS OF THE SPACE THAT WOMEN HAVE, BUT I DO THINK THIS IS, YOU KNOW, AND EYE-OPENING OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL OF US.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

THANK YOU ALL.

GREAT SHOW.

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