Machiavelli for Women w/NPR's Stacey Vanek Smith

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: I THINK WHAT INSPIRED ME TO WRITE THE BOOK WAS JUST SOMETHING THAT I NOTICED OVER MY YEARS OF COVERING BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS THAT NAMELY I WAS NOT TALKING TO A LOT OF WOMEN.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL ISSUES FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK WE CONTINUE OUR DEVELOPMENT THOUGHT LEADERS SERIES WITH NPR'S HOST OF THE PODCAST, THE INDICATOR FROM PLANET MONEY, AND AUTHOR OF MACHIAVELLI FOR WOMEN.

STACY VANEK SMITH IS A VETERAN REPORTER FOR PUBLIC RADIO AND IS FOCUSED ON ISSUES REGARDING BUSINESS ECONOMICS AND RELATED AREAS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

WELCOME, STACY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

AND FAILED TO BE HERE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WE ARE THRILLED TO HAVE YOU.

FIRST TELL THE AUDIENCE ABOUT YOUR CAREER AT NPR AND YOUR PODCAST.

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: ABSOLUTELY.

I HAVE BEEN WORKING IN PUBLIC RADIO FOR A ABOUT 15 YEARS.

THE WHOLE TIME, COVERING BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS PRETTY MUCH.

I WORKED FOR MARKETPLACE FOR A LITTLE OVER A DECADE AND WHEN I WENT TO NPR WHERE I'VE WORKED FOR PLANET MONEY, WHICH IS A PODCAST ABOUT BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS.

AND THEN ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, I HELPED TO START THE SPIN-OFF OF PLANET MONEY, A DAILY PODCAST CALLED PLANET MONEY INDICATOR, ALL DEALING WITH BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS AND ALL THE ISSUES RELATED TO THAT AND TO MONEY.

I'VE DEFINITELY BEEN A GENERALIST IN THE REALM OF BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS.

SO, YES, HAVE DEFINITELY COVERED THE STOCK MARKET, EMPLOYMENT NUMBERS, EVERYTHING FROM THE HOUSING CRISIS, QUANTITATIVE EASING, THE COVID PANDEMIC.

SO TRY TO TAKE A VERY HOLISTIC VIEW OF THE ECONOMY AND MONEY, BASICALLY ANYTHING MONEY I HAVE LICENSED TO COVER.

IT'S ALSO PERSONAL FINANCES WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED SINCE OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE ALONG WOMEN COMING UP IN THE PUBLIC BROADCASTING ARENA AND COVERING THESE ISSUES FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT HAS THAT TAUGHT YOU ABOUT WOMEN AND MONEY?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: WELL, THE MAIN THING IT TAUGHT ME IS THAT WOMEN SEEM TO BE SHUT OUT OF MONEY IN A LOT OF WAYS.

ONE THING YOU LEARN WHEN YOU COVER BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS IS THAT YOU TALK TO A LOT OF MEN.

LUCKILY, I LOVE TALKING TO MEN.

I LOVE TALKING TO ECONOMISTS.

BUT IT'S REALLY SURPRISING, ECONOMICS IS ALMOST 80 PERCENT MALE STILL.

MOST PEOPLE WORKING IN BANKING AND FINANCE OUR MEN.

WOMEN DO START 40 PERCENT OF BUSINESSES IN THE COUNTRY BUT THEY HAVE ABOUT 2 PERCENT OF VENTURE CAPITAL.

SO MOST BUSINESS LEADERS, MOST CEOS ARE MEN.

SO THAT IS THE THING THAT I THINK INITIALLY INSPIRED ME TO START LOOKING INTO THIS TOPIC, WAS THAT I JUST WASN'T SEEING A LOT OF WOMEN OR A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP IN BUSINESS OR IN ECONOMICS.

AND OF COURSE, THIS IS BECAUSE OF MEN, IS THAT MEN AND MINORITIES GET ABOUT MONEY.

AND I THINK IT'S ALL QUITE INTERRELATED BUT AT MONEY AND ACCESS TO MONEY AND THE ABILITY TO TALK MONEY IT IN BUSINESS I THINK IT'S CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHY DID YOU FOCUS ON WOMEN IN MACHIAVELLI IT IN YOUR BOX?

WHAT DOES NICOLE MACHIAVELLI HAVE TO SAY TO WOMEN THESE DAYS?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.

PEOPLE ARE OFTEN VERY SURPRISED.

MACHIAVELLI WAS NOT A FEMINIST IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

BUT MACHIAVELLI'S ADVICE FOR LEADERSHIP AND ATTAINING POWER DOES HAVE A REALLY TIMELESS ELEMENT, WHICH IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN GOING BACK TO HIM FOR 500 YEARS.

AND THE PRINCE, MACHIAVELLI'S MOST FAMOUS WORK, WAS WRITTEN FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF MACHIAVELLI WAS ESSENTIALLY SORT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FLORENCE.

THAT WAS HIS JOB.

AND HE WRITES IT TO LOOK, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, ONGOING PRINCE.

HE SAYS THERE ARE TWO PLAINTIVE PRINCES THAT EXIST: THERE'S THE INHERITING PRINCES GOT HIS KINGDOM FROM HIS FAMILY AND THE CONQUERING PRINCE WHO WON NEW LAND.

IN MACHIAVELLI MAKES THE POINT THAT FOR THE CONQUERING PRINCE, THINGS ARE VERY HARD.

POWER IS NEW AND UNSTABLE, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CHALLENGING HIM, HE IS A NEWCOMER, AND OUTSIDE R. HE'S ACTUALLY AN EXCELLENT PROXY FOR WOMEN AND MARGINALIZED WORKERS.

PEOPLE ARE NEW TO POWERPOINT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE IN THE WORKPLACE, IN NEW FIELDS.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUALLY GETTING POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP OR EXCELLING IN THOSE FIELDS, BACK IT'S A LOT MORE DIFFICULT.

WHEN I STARTED COVERING THINGS LIKE THE GENDER PAY GAP, THE GENDER PROMOTION GAP IN WOMEN TRYING TO GET VENTURE CAPITAL AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I STARTED TO SEE A PATTERN.

AND I THINK I BECAME FRUSTRATED WITH HOW SLOW SOME OF THE PROGRESS WAS.

SOME OF THE PROGRESS IS SO STUNNING AND EXCITING AND INSPIRING AND IN SOME WAYS WOMEN ARE JUST STUCK IN THE U.S. ECONOMY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND TELL ME, WHAT'S CAUSING THEM TO BE STUCK IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY ARE?

I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, THE PANDEMIC, OBVIOUSLY, HAS NOT BEEN GOOD FOR WOMEN.

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: YES, EXACTLY.

NO ONE EXACTLY KNOWS WHY WERE STOCK.

ECONOMISTS HAVE ALL KINDS OF THEORIES.

BUT THE GENDER PAY GAP, FOR INSTANCE, HAS NOT MOVED IN A DECADE.

SO IT'S BEEN STUCK FOR 10 YEARS.OMEN MAKE ABOUT $0.80 ON THE DOLLAR FOR WHAT A MAN MAKES FOR BLACK WOMEN, IT'S ABOUT $0.63 ON THE DOLLAR.

AND FOR NATIVE AND LATINA WOMEN, IT'S ABOUT $0.55.

THOSE NUMBERS HAVE JUST BEEN STATIC.

A LOT OF STATISTICS ABOUT WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE HAVE BEEN STATIC.

IN THE PANDEMIC, IT'S BEEN WORSE.

WOMEN LOST ABOUT 30 YEARS OF PROGRESS IN THE WORKPLACE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

A LOT OF WOMEN DROPPED OUT TO WORK FROM HOME AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IT'S JUST MYSTIFYING WHY THE PROGRESS HAS KIND OF STOPPED IN THIS AREA AND IN SOME CASES MOVED BACKWARDS A LITTLE BIT.

WOMEN AND MINORITIES GOT A SMALLER SHARE OF VENTURE CAPITAL LAST YEAR THAN THEY HAD BEFORE, WHICH IS ALREADY PRETTY TINY.

SO IT DOES SEEM LIKE IN CERTAIN WAYS WE ARE JUST NOT MOVING FORWARD AT THE RATE WE SHOULD BE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT HAS TO DO WITH EITHER -- I MEAN, WHAT A LOT OF THE FEMINIST LEADERS WOULD SAY IS ACCESS TO CHILDCARE.

AND SO, WOMEN HAVE TO DROP OUT WHEN THEY HAVE KIDS, WHICH I ALWAYS THOUGHT THEY CARE TO THAT PROBLEM WOULD BE THAT THEY WOULD MAKE THEIR PARTNERS DO HALF THE WORK AND AT LEAST THEN YOU WOULD NEEDED A LESS DAYCARE BECAUSE ONE PARENT WOULD BE AROUND WHILE THE OTHER WAS WORKING AND VICE VERSA?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: YES, CHILDCARE IS I THINK THE BIG KAHUNA HERE.

IS RESPONSIBLE FOR -- I THINK A LOT OF THE PAY GAP, A LOT OF THE PROMOTION GAP, A LOT OF THE LACK OF WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.

WOMEN MAKE ALL KINDS OF DECISIONS BASED ON ACCOMMODATING CHILDCARE.

ERTAINLY, THAT IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST ISSUE FACING WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE STILL.

AND AS YOU SAY, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PROGRESS WITH PARTNERS AND MEN HELPING OUT A LOT MORE WITH CHILDCARE DUTIES.

BUT WE KNOW FROM SURVEYS AND STATISTICS THAT WOMEN STILL DO THE VAST MAJORITY OF CHILDCARE AND OF HOUSEWORK.

IT JUST FALLS ON THEM AND THAT STAYED TRUE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

SO HELPING WOMEN WITH THESE ISSUES AND SOLVING THEM IS ABSOLUTELY KEY TO HELPING WOMEN ADVANCE IN THE ECONOMY AND CLOSE SOME OF THESE GAPS THAT HAVE BEEN STUCK FOR SO LONG.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LET'S GET BACK TO YOUR BOOK ABOUT MACHIAVELLI AND WOMEN.

WHAT WOULD MACHIAVELLI TELL WOMEN OR WHAT WAS HIS MESSAGE FROM THE PRINCE ABOUT DROPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE TO STAY HOME OR TAKING A LESSER JOB THAT CAN BE -- WHERE YOU CAN TELECOMMUTE IN ORDER TO CARE FOR THE CHILDREN.

>>>.

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: WELL, MACHIAVELLI WAS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, A HUGE ADVOCATE OF SEEING THE SITUATION CLEARLY.

I THINK THAT IS HIS GREATEST STRENGTH, IN THE MOST WISDOM HE OFFERS IS IN THIS AREA ALL.

TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION YOU ARE IN WITH NO FILTER.

AND A LOT OF TIMES, THINGS ARE NOT THE WAY THAT THEY SHOULD BE.

A LOT OF TIMES THINGS ARE UNFAIR AND WORKPLACE SITUATIONS ARE DIFFICULT AND UNFAIR IN WAYS THEY SHOULDN'T BE.

MACHIAVELLI'S, WHAT ABOUT MACHIAVELLI ADVOCATED WAS JUST LOOKING RIGHT AT THE SITUATION, ASSESSING IT, AND FIGURING OUT WHAT YOU CAN DO AND WHERE YOU CAN FIND YOUR ADVANTAGES.

SO I THINK FOR WOMEN JUGGLING CHILDCARE, MACHIAVELLI WAS A LOOK AT YOUR OWN WORKPLACE SITUATION.

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU NEED TO DO YOUR BEST WORK AND ASK FOR THAT.

PAID I THINK IT WILL DIFFER DEPENDING ON WORKPLACES, AND I THINK FOR EMPLOYERS RIGHT NOW, THEY ARE VERY HUNGRY FOR WORKERS.

I DO THINK RIGHT NOW OFFERS AN EXTRAORDINARY OPPORTUNITY TO WOMEN TO ASK FOR WHAT THEY NEED.

THINK ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED TO MAKE YOUR WORKPLACE SITUATION MOST ADVANTAGEOUS FOR YOU SO YOU CAN DO YOUR BEST WORK AND ASK EXACTLY FOR THAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT HOW IS THAT -- THAT SOUNDS LIKE VERY PRACTICAL ADVICE BUT IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT FOR ONE GENDER VERSUS THE OTHER, NECESSARILY.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: THAT'S VERY TRUE.

PRACTICAL ADVICES BIG FOR MACHIAVELLI.

FOR WOMEN, THOUGH, ASKING FOR THINGS TENDS TO BE TRICKIER.

FOR MEN, IT'S VERY EASY.

IT CAN BE MUCH SIMPLER TO BE ASSERTIVE AND TO ASK FOR THINGS DIRECTLY OR EVEN AGGRESSIVELY AND SAY, LIKE, IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME A 20,000 DOLLAR RAISE, I'LL QUIT.

FOR WOMEN, THAT IS PROCESSED VERY DIFFERENTLY.

AND THIS COMES FROM A LOT OF RESEARCH.

WHEN WOMEN ASK FOR THINGS AGGRESSIVELY OR ASSERTIVELY, IT'S JUST PERCEIVED IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

PEOPLE HAVE OFFERED NEGATIVE TAKEAWAYS WHEN WOMEN ASK FOR THINGS.

THEY WILL BE ASSUMED TO BE SELFISH OR AGGRESSIVE OR NOT EASY TO WORK WITH.

THEY WILL OFTEN BE HELD BACK FROM PROJECTS OR ADVANCEMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE CONSIDERED DIFFICULT.

SO WHEN YOU ARE WOMAN AND YOU ARE ASKING FOR THINGS, YOU HAVE TO WALK A LITTLE BIT OF A FINE LINE WHERE YOU'RE ASKING FOR SOMETHING, BUT YOU'RE ASKING IN A WAY THAT'S NOT TOO AGGRESSIVE OR ASSERTIVE, YOU ARE ASKING IN A WAY THAT IS MOST LIKELY TO GET YOU WHAT YOU WANT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND HOW DO YOU DO THAT ASK?

HOW DO YOU COUNCIL WOMEN IN THE BOOK TO DO THAT ASK, MAKE THAT ASK?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE DOING, BUT FOR, FOR ASKING FOR A RAISE, LET'S SAY, OR DIFFERENT WORKPLACE SITUATION, BUT I RECOMMEND IS THAT WOMEN GO INTO A NEGOTIATION LOOKING AT IT LIKE A COLLABORATION.

YOU ARE COLLABORATING WITH YOUR WORKPLACE.

THIS IS YOUR PARTNER.

IN A LOT OF WAYS, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

YOUR WORKPLACE GIVES YOU THINGS AND YOU GIVE YOUR WORKPLACE THINGS.

SO TO GO IN AND PAINT A PICTURE OF WHERE YOU WANT TO GO WITH THIS COMPANY, THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT YOU ARE EXCITED ABOUT AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO OFFER THE COMPANY, THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT, ALSO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, AND PAINT A PICTURE OF THIS SORT OF WONDERFUL COLLABORATION YOU CAN HAVE GOING FORWARD AT THIS COMPANY.

PRESENT THAT VISION.

THEN ASK FOR WHAT YOU NEED.

LISTEN, I'M SO EXCITED ABOUT WHERE I'M GOING HERE AND I BELIEVE IN THIS COMPANY'S MISSION.

I THINK I CAN GREATLY CONTRIBUTE TO THIS AND I KNOW THAT YOU ARE WANTING TO MOVE MORE IN THIS DIRECTION IN THAT DIRECTION AND I TRULY BELIEVE I CAN HELP WITH THAT.

I DO KNOW FROM MY MARKET RESEARCH THAT THE SALARY RANGE FOR THIS POSITION TENDS TO BE BETWEEN 70 AND $90,000.

I KNOW I'M NOT MAKING IN THAT RANGE.

IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO FEEL LIKE THE WORK THAT I'M DOING IS RECOGNIZED AND VALUED.

I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT SALARY AS WELL.

I AM EXCITED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS COMPANY.

LESS OF A MONO A MONO SITUATION AND MORE OF A BETTER TO GIVE THE SITUATION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHY IS IT THAT YOU THINK -- THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN AS HORMONES AT LEAST IN TERMS OF OUR PHYSIOLOGY AND OUR SYSTEMS.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT MORE ESTROGEN AND LESS TEST AROUND THAT MAKES WOMEN LESS ABLE TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF ASKS?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

RESEARCH DOES SHOW THAT WOMEN ASK FOR RAISES, ASK FOR THINGS THAT WORK.

ABOUT 1/5 AS MUCH AS MEN DO.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS FOR THIS.

PART OF IT IS THAT WOMEN CAN OFTEN BE PUNISHED FOR ASKING.

AND IN A WAY THAT MEN ARE NOT.

I THINK A LOT OF WHAT KEEPS WOMEN FROM ASKING HIS WISDOM.

IN A CERTAIN WAY, MACHIAVELLI WISDOM THAT IF THEY ASK, THINGS COULD GO AWRY.

SO THEY DON'T ASK.

THE UPSIDE IS UNCERTAIN.

WOMEN TEND TO BE LESS SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATIONS THAN MEN ARE IN THE DOWN SIDE IS PRETTY CERTAIN.

YOU WILL BE THOUGHT OF AS LESS PLEASANT TO WORK WITH, WOMEN WHO ASK FOR MORE MONEY IN THE JOB NEGOTIATION ARE CONSIDERED LESS DESIRABLE TO WORK WITH AND IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW THEY ASK.

SO I THINK WOMEN ARE LOOKING AT THE SITUATION AND MAKING A CALL.

AND THEN, IN A VERY STRANGE TURN OF EVENTS, ALSO BLAMING THEMSELVES FOR THE SITUATION.

WHY AM I NOT ASKING FOR MORE?

I CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN THERE.

WHY AM I NOT GETTING PAID MORE?

WHY CAN'T I ASK FOR A RAISE?

HAT IS WRONG WITH ME?

WOMEN ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE THEY ARE PUNISHED FOR ASKING AND PUNISH THEMSELVES FOR NOT ASKING.

IT CAN BE REALLY DIFFICULT.

I THINK THE TRUTH IS WOMEN ARE JUST IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION WHEN THEY ARE ASKING FOR MORE.

AND SO, I'M HOPING IN MY BOOK TO GIVE WOMEN SOME TOOLS TO FIND WAYS TO ASK FOR MINIMIZING THE DOWNSIDE AND HOPEFULLY GETTING TO WHERE THINGS ARE MORE EQUAL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I WAS JUST TALKING BEFORE, NOT BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS FUNNY, BUT BECAUSE IT RANG SO TRUE WITH ME.

EARLIER ON IN MY CAREER, I WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD SORT OF HAVE TWO VOICES IN YOUR HEAD GOING BACK AND FORTH AND ONE SAYING, YOU KNOW, BE PUSHY, BE LIKE THE GUYS, AND THE OTHER ONES SAYING, NO.

IF YOU DO THAT, THIS WILL HAPPEN AND THAT'LL BE BAD AND BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

I GUESS MEN JUST DON'T HAVE THAT FILTER?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: I THINK THEY DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT.

BECAUSE ONE MAN ASK FOR MORE, PEOPLE OFTEN ADMIRE THE MAN.

EVEN IF HE DOESN'T GET WHAT HE'S ASKING FOR, IT IS SORT OF IN LINE WITH TRAITS WE ASSOCIATE WITH MASCULINITY, BEING ASSERTIVE, BEING INDEPENDENT, NOT CARING TOO MUCH WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK, BEING A SORT -- LIKE BEING AGGRESSIVE.

THOSE ARE TRAITS THAT WE LIKE TO SEE IN MEN AS A SOCIETY.

IN WOMEN, PEOPLE, WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF-EFFACING, NURTURING, COMPASSIONATE, NOT ASKING FOR ONESELF.

SO WHEN WOMEN DO ASK FOR MORE, WHEN WOMEN DO ASSERT THEMSELVES, IT CAN STRIKE PEOPLE IN A FUNNY WAY, EVEN IF THEY DON'T WANT TO FEEL THAT WAY.

IT'S JUST CULTURAL THINGS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN IN.

SO PEOPLE WILL HAVE A REACTION LIKE, I DON'T KNOW.

LIKE, SHE JUST SEEMS KIND OF GRABBY, WHERE THEY WON'T HAVE THAT WITH A MAN.

WELL, YOU KNOW, GOOD FOR HIM.

HE'S TRYING TO GET HIS.

GOOD FOR HIM.

>> Bonnie Erbe: I'VE HEARD A LOT OF THIS, HAVING HAD THE SHOW ON PUBLIC TV NOW FOR 30 SEASONS.

THESE THINGS ARE NOT NEW.

WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE TO CHANGE THIS?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: THIS IS VERY TRUE.

I THINK WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE IS TWOFOLD: ONE, I THINK A LOT OF THE CHANGES TO COME PROBABLY AT LIKE A COMPANY AND A POLICY LEVEL, AND THAT'S ALWAYS WHAT I'VE READ IN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS.

BUT IT ALWAYS FRUSTRATED ME A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE WHAT YOU DO IF YOUR COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE THESE POLICIES IN PLACE?

WHAT DO YOU DO BEFORE LIKE POLICY ACTION IS TAKEN?

SO THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL TO MOVE THE NEEDLE ON THESE THINGS.

AND, YOU KNOW, HAS BEEN ENORMOUS PROGRESS.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO SEE THAT PROGRESS AND I THINK LITTLE BY LITTLE, THINGS ARE CHANGING ENORMOUSLYUT I THINK IT JUST TAKES TIME AND PROBABLY POLICY.

BUT FROM AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, I THINK THERE ARE THINGS PEOPLE CAN DO IN THEIR OWN SITUATIONS TO MAKE THEM BETTER AND TO GET WHAT THEY NEED.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, IT SOUNDS LIKE WHEN YOU ARE ASKING FOR YOURSELF, YOU KIND OF PRESENTED AS THIS IS FOR US.

IF WE MOVE FORWARD WITH A RAISE FOR ME, WE WILL COME UP, MEANING I WILL DO ALL THIS FOR YOU.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN AND POWER BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT DO YOU THINK THE ADVICE YOU ARE OFFERING NOW IS AN EXTENSION OF WHAT SHERYL SANDBERG TALKED ABOUT IN LEAN IN?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: VERY MUCH SO, I THINK.

VERY MUCH SO.

I THINK THE IDEA OF WOMEN ASKING FOR MORE AND PUSHING IN THEIR JOBS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

YES, I DO THINK IT IS IN CERTAIN WAYS AN EXTENSION OF LEANING IN.

I ALSO THINK THAT SOME OF THE ADVICE IN LEAN AND CAN BE A LITTLE, IT CAN BE A LITTLE DIFFICULT IF YOU ARE A WOMAN IN THE WORKPLACE TO JUST COMPLETELY COMMIT TO WORK WITHOUT BALANCING THINGS THE WAY THAT YOU NEED TO BALANCE.

I'M NOT SURE IT'S ALWAYS REALISTIC FOR WOMEN TO LEAN IN.

I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN ARE IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY CAN'T LEAN AND.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT QUESTION, WHICH IS DID WOMEN FOLLOWING THAT BOOK, THE RELEASE OF THAT BOOK, LEAN IN, OR WAS IT REALLY JUST WRITTEN TO IVY LEAGUE, EXECUTIVE WOMEN, AND NOT TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: I THINK THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF BOTH.

I GENERALLY THINK THERE'S ADVICE AND THEIR AND ADVICE THAT SPEAKS TO ALL WOMEN.

ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL LESSONS FROM LEAD IN IS, AND I STILL REMEMBER THE STATISTIC BECAUSE I REMEMBER READING IT SO CLEARLY, WAS A STUDY OF WHEN WOMEN ASK FOR PROMOTIONS AND THAT MEANT STATISTICALLY WILL ASK FOR PROMOTIONS WHEN THEY HAD 60 PERCENT OF REQUIRED CREDENTIALS FOR A JOB AND WOMEN WAIT UNTIL THEY HAVE 100 PERCENT.

I THINK KNOWING THINGS LIKE THAT IS VERY POWERFUL NO MATTER WHAT YOUR SITUATION IS.

BUT, YES, A LOT OF WOMEN DO HAVE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO COMPLETELY COMMIT TO WORK.

THEY CANNOT JUST CHOOSE EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

A LOT OF WOMEN ARE IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY ARE CHOOSING BETWEEN TWO THINGS THAT MAY BE MORE DIFFICULT.

SO I DO THINK, I DO THINK THAT ADVICE IS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT PARTICULAR IN SOME WAYS, BUT IT'S ALSO VERY POWERFUL BOOK.

THERE WERE A LOT OF REALLY INTERESTING MESSAGES IN THERE.

SO I DO GENERALLY LIKE THE BOOK, BUT I ALSO FELT THAT IT WASN'T MAYBE SPEAKING TO EVERYONE IN SOME OF THE ADVICE SEEMED A LITTLE UNREALISTIC TO ME ANYWAY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LET'S GET BACK TO THE WOMEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT NOW, THE WOMEN, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE ARE, AS YOU PUT IT, MAKING A WHOLE LOT LESS THAN THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN.

ALSO, A LOT OF THEM, RETAIL CLERKS, RETAIL SALES WOMEN, WAITRESSES AT RESTAURANTS OR WAITSTAFF.

A LOT OF THEM HAVE JOBS WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF TELECOMMUTING.

AND PARTICULARLY WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE PANDEMIC AT LEAST AT THIS POINT IN TIME, WE SEEM TO BE HEADING BACK INTO.

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: THAT'S VERY TRUE.

I WOULD SAY TO THIS WOMEN THAT RIGHT NOW IS AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY, BECAUSE.

THE EXACT JOBS, SERVICE JOBS, WHICH TEND TO BE DISPROPORTIONATELY WOMEN, OR JOBS THAT ARE JUST INCREDIBLY IN DEMAND.

EMPLOYERS ARE DESPERATE FOR WORKERS, DESPERATE TO HAVE WORKERS NOT LEAVE AND DESPERATE TO FILL POSITIONS THAT THEY HAVE.

SO WORKERS ARE GETTING RAISES, PROMOTIONS, BONUSES, IT'S A REALLY GOOD TIME TO ASK.

WORKERS HAVE A LOT OF POWER AND IS ESPECIALLY IN THE SERVICE SECTOR WHICH IS REALLY DESPERATE FOR WORKERS.

SO A LOT OF THESE WOMEN ARE IN AN EXCELLENT POSITION TO ASK FOR THINGS.

ALSO TO APPLY FOR OTHER JOBS, THAT CAN BE A REALLY POWERFUL WAY TO GET A RAISE TOO, IS TO GO TO ANOTHER COMPANY OR TO APPLY FOR PROMOTION WITHIN A COMPANY.

PEOPLE ARE MORE WILLING TO PROMOTE, BECAUSE THEY JUST NEED TO FILL POSITIONS.

AND WHEN YOU GET ONE RAISE, THAT STAYS WITH YOU FOR YOUR CAREER.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU FIGHT FOR ONE RAISE, YOU FIGHT AND GET 10,000 MORE DOLLARS, THAT PUTS YOU ON A DIFFERENT PLATFORM FOR YOUR NEXT RAISE, YOUR NEXT BONUS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IS IT TRUE THAT THROUGH THE PANDEMIC AND UP TO THIS POINT, WOMEN STILL HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OR A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK A RECESSION IS MAYBE DOWN THE ROAD FOR US A LITTLE BIT OR THE DELTA VARIANT HAS ALREADY STARTED TO SHUT DOWN A LOT OF SOCIAL INTERACTION.

AND OF COURSE, THAT WAS THE OPENING UP AT RESTAURANTS AGAIN, GETTING CUSTOMERS, ETC., .

AND OF COURSE, THAT WAS THE OPENING UP AT RESTAURANTS AGAIN, GETTING CUSTOMERS, ETC., ETC.

WAS WHAT WAS TURNING AROUND THE ECONOMY.

IS THE ECONOMY STILL TURNING AROUND FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND FROM WHAT YOU HEAR, OR ARE WOMEN RISKING A LITTLE TOO MUCH BY ASKING FOR WHAT THEY DESERVE?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: WHO WORRIES ABOUT THAT IS A LOT OF WHAT CAN HOLD WOMEN BACK FROM ASKING FOR RAISES.

LIKE, WHAT HAPPENS IF TIMES ARE BAD AND SUDDENLY I'M EXPENSIVE?

DOES THAT EXPOSE ME?

ABOUT THE ECONOMY, THERE'S JUST SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY RIGHT NOW.

EVERY TIME IT SEEMS LIKE WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, A STABLE PATH AHEAD, THINGS CHANGE.

I WOULD SAY WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FOR THE ECONOMY.

IT'S ON A GROWTH TRAJECTORY RIGHT NOW, THINGS LOOK GOOD RIGHT NOW.

THAT OF COURSE COULD CHANGE.

ONE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT COSTING LESS DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE YOU SAVE.

PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT BASIC WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY.

IT'S LIKE SHOCKINGLY SO.

SO IF SOMEONE GETS PAID MORE, PEOPLE WILL OFTEN THINK THEY ARE JUST MORE VALUABLE, THAT THE WORK THEY DO IS BETTER.

IF SOMEONE GETS PAID LESS OR HAS A LOWER TITLE, PEOPLE WILL TEND TO ASSUME, OH, THEY MUST NOT BE THAT GOOD.

WOW, WHY SHE ONLY GETTING PAID X AMOUNT AFTER WORKING AT THE COMPANY FOR SO LONG?

SHE MUST NOT BE SO GREAT.

OR, WOW, SHE CERTAINLY GETTING PAID A LOT OF MONEY.

SHE MUST BE GOOD.

I WISH IT WERE NOT THAT WAY, BECAUSE THOSE THINGS DON'T ALWAYS CORRELATE.

BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT GETTING PAID LESS DOES NOT KEEP YOU SAFE.

AND BECAUSE THERE IS JUST SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY RIGHT NOW, RIDLEY DON'T KNOW WHERE THINGS ARE HEADED, THINK IT'S AN ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT MOMENT TO MAKE AND ASK HIM TO STEP FORWARD AND TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU NEED IN THE WORKPLACE AND TO TRY TO MAKE AS MUCH OF IT HAPPENED AS YOU CAN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT WOMEN ONLY WORKSPACES.

WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THEM?

THAT SEEMED TO BE, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL YEARS PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT IT SEEMED TO BE AN IMPORTANT BOILER ROOM, IF YOU WILL, WHERE WOMEN COULD GO BY THEMSELVES AND TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE ISSUES WE ARE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW.

AND IS IT STILL HELPING WOMEN?

IS IT STILL NEEDED?

>> Stacey Vanek Smith: I DO THINK IT STILL NEEDED.

I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE.

CERTAINLY, WE NEED EVERYBODY IN ON THIS CONVERSATION IN ORDER FOR THINGS TO CHANGE.

IT CAN'T BE AN EXCLUSIONARY CONVERSATION.

AT THE SAME TIME, LIKE YOU SAID, I THINK IT CAN BE VERY EMPOWERING FOR WOMEN OR MINORITIES OR OTHER MARGINALIZED WORKERS TO COME TOGETHER AND SHARE STORIES, COLLABORATE, FIGURE THINGS OUT.

I THINK THERE IS ENORMOUS STRENGTH THAT CAN COME WITH THAT AND PROBLEM SOLVING AND ALSO BANDING TOGETHER AND HELPING EACH OTHER OUT.

I THINK THAT IS A REALLY POWERFUL THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IN WOMEN ONLY SPACES AND OTHER SPACES WHERE SMALLER GROUPS OR MARGINALIZED GROUPS CAN GET TOGETHERLTIMATELY, I THINK WE DO HAVE TO BRING EVERYONE IN.

THAT IS THE GOAL.

BUT I THINK THOSE SPACES CAN BE VERY POWERFUL, YES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, STACY.

THIS HAS BEEN VERY ENLIGHTENING.

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